|
| Author |
Message |
nilgiri Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 1510 Location: New Hampshire
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: More 100NL line checks (2) |
|
|
Hand #1: MP is running 28/20/3.5 over 211 hands
------------------
HAND #1
------------------
Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
UTG: $168.85
MP: $104.10
CO: $115.10
Hero (BTN): $100
SB: $55.45
BB: $90.55
Pre-Flop: 7 7 dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG calls $1, MP raises to $4.50, CO folds, Hero calls $4.50, 2 folds, UTG calls $3.50
Flop: ($15) 3 6 2 (3 Players)
UTG checks, MP bets $12, Hero folds
Hand #2: BB is running 28/17/2.8 over 187 hands
------------------
HAND #2
------------------
Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BTN: $119
Hero (SB): $110.60
BB: $102.15
UTG: $249.65
CO: $108.45
Pre-Flop: T Q dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB calls $2
Flop: ($6) J A A (2 Players)
Hero bets $3.50, BB calls $3.50
Turn: ($13) 4 (2 Players)
Hero checks, BB checks
River: ($13) K (2 Players)
Hero bets $8, BB raises to $22, Hero calls $14 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
crossroader Pair
Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 46
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 2nd hand is fine with 3-1 on the river no way u fold the strt, 1st hand i definately call the flop & re-assess on the turn, based on his stats he could be betting w/any number of hands & thats a pretty dry flop which is nice for a c-bet |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
renegades8 Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006 Posts: 3512 Location: spewing @ 25NL
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crossroader wrote: |
| 2nd hand is fine with 3-1 on the river no way u fold the strt |
I doubt folding that river entered his mind, but I'm sure raising might have. Just call here I guess, you're getting played back at with boats way more often than you're getting called with worse hands. If you're going to raise preflop make it $4 though, and if you're going to bet the flop make it like $4-5.
| crossroader wrote: |
| 1st hand i definately call the flop & re-assess on the turn, based on his stats he could be betting w/any number of hands & thats a pretty dry flop which is nice for a c-bet |
That's kind of a gross spot to put yourself into imo and you don't really know where you are on most turns. Folding is fine I guess especially since you have UTG behind you and you don't really have a clue where you are. With MP betting out there that's probably most likely an overpair or a set. UTG probably check/raises this flop more than you'd expect as well with sets since it's so dry. As for this being a nice flop to c-bet, don't you usually want to bet flops that aren't dry so you can rep more? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
nilgiri Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 1510 Location: New Hampshire
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| renegades8 wrote: |
| crossroader wrote: |
| 2nd hand is fine with 3-1 on the river no way u fold the strt |
I doubt folding that river entered his mind, but I'm sure raising might have. |
Well, folding did cross my mind, but not as strongly as raising. I don't know how often I am behind or ahead here, nor whether I will get paid off for 3-betting here the times I am ahead.
| Quote: |
| Just call here I guess, you're getting played back at with boats way more often than you're getting called with worse hands. |
That's what I figured (obviously -- I just called). What scared me the most was his turn check. Either he's hoping I hit something big (e.g. a straight) because he already has something bigger (i.e. a boat), or he didn't really have anything until the K. Or possibly he has a weak A and isn't confident enough that I don't have an A to bet for value OTT? Is this thinking flawed? And why the reraise when the K comes out? Any thoughts?
| Quote: |
| If you're going to raise preflop make it $4 though, and if you're going to bet the flop make it like $4-5. |
Why make it $4 - $5? I figure if he has something (A or J) he's going to call/raise no matter the size of the c-bet. If he doesn't he's likely to fold to even a smallish c-bet. Is this flawed thinking?
| crossroader wrote: |
| 1st hand i definately call the flop & re-assess on the turn, based on his stats he could be betting w/any number of hands & thats a pretty dry flop which is nice for a c-bet |
That's kind of a gross spot to put yourself into imo and you don't really know where you are on most turns. Folding is fine I guess especially since you have UTG behind you and you don't really have a clue where you are. With MP betting out there that's probably most likely an overpair or a set. UTG probably check/raises this flop more than you'd expect as well with sets since it's so dry. As for this being a nice flop to c-bet, don't you usually want to bet flops that aren't dry so you can rep more?[/quote]
I can't call this c-bet. As you said, calling is just putting me in a gross spot OTT, and it gives UTG a chance to raise and force me out. If I'm playing, I'm raising. My thought was that I'm not ahead enough -- particularly after such a big c-bet (keep in mind there is a rake, too, not recorded in the HH). I just don't know if this is playing too scared. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
HuJwang Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 Posts: 6003 Location: Halifax, NS
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nilgiri, what are your stats on the two tables? since both villains in those hands have reasonably solid stats, i would assume they are good enough to either have stats or at least some sort of read on how you play. this is especially important in hand #2.
hand 1. i might sometimes peel a card, but i guess this guy is easily aggressive enough to double-barrel a lot, making the hand really tough to play on future streets. r/f is also an option but i think i'd stick to just folding.
hand 2. what hands can possibly have you beat here? all i can think of that might play this way is A4s and AJ... and possibly 44. and most of these hands probably bet turn, since he is aggro. meanwhile he can have any other suited ace, as well as some floats. raising the river is definitely an option, but the problem is that stack sizes are just so weird. i can't imagine us being good very often when we get shoved, but we will be getting like 3 or 4 to 1 and it will be such a tough fold. this is why i'd like to know what your stats/image are, because if you are a tight player then i can see him getting away from a bare ace if you 3-bet. however, if you're on the laggish side, he will have a much tougher decision with an ace and i think there's definitely value in raising to $60 or so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
nilgiri Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 1510 Location: New Hampshire
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm slightly laggy. Not terribly so, but I tend to run something like 23/19 on average. Definitely not really tight. I'm pretty sure I was running a littler laggier when this hand happened. I'm also pretty aggressive, and I'm sure my opponents have noticed this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
renegades8 Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006 Posts: 3512 Location: spewing @ 25NL
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nilgiri wrote: |
| renegades8 wrote: |
| Just call here I guess, you're getting played back at with boats way more often than you're getting called with worse hands. |
That's what I figured (obviously -- I just called). What scared me the most was his turn check. Either he's hoping I hit something big (e.g. a straight) because he already has something bigger (i.e. a boat), or he didn't really have anything until the K. Or possibly he has a weak A and isn't confident enough that I don't have an A to bet for value OTT? Is this thinking flawed? And why the reraise when the K comes out? Any thoughts? |
I think the biggest problem is that you really don't know where you are. Your hand is strong enough that folding is nitty, yet since you don't know where you are it's not really strong enough to raise. I don't really know what hands he waits until the river to raise, so I think calling is best. I don't know if he really waits until the river to raise you with hands that have you beat, but I don't think he raises here with hands you have beat.
| nilgiri wrote: |
| renegades8 wrote: |
| If you're going to raise preflop make it $4 though, and if you're going to bet the flop make it like $4-5. |
Why make it $4 - $5? I figure if he has something (A or J) he's going to call/raise no matter the size of the c-bet. If he doesn't he's likely to fold to even a smallish c-bet. Is this flawed thinking? |
I guess it doesn't matter quite as much in this hand given the board, but I generally like to c-bet around like 3/4 pot, especially at microstakes. Of course bet sizing doesn't mean as much at higher limits, but at micros I feel as though they sense that your size of bet is related to the size of your hand, and you're more likely to just take down pots if you bet larger.
| nilgiri wrote: |
| renegades wrote: |
| crossroader wrote: |
| 1st hand i definately call the flop & re-assess on the turn, based on his stats he could be betting w/any number of hands & thats a pretty dry flop which is nice for a c-bet |
That's kind of a gross spot to put yourself into imo and you don't really know where you are on most turns. Folding is fine I guess especially since you have UTG behind you and you don't really have a clue where you are. With MP betting out there that's probably most likely an overpair or a set. UTG probably check/raises this flop more than you'd expect as well with sets since it's so dry. As for this being a nice flop to c-bet, don't you usually want to bet flops that aren't dry so you can rep more? |
I can't call this c-bet. As you said, calling is just putting me in a gross spot OTT, and it gives UTG a chance to raise and force me out. If I'm playing, I'm raising. My thought was that I'm not ahead enough -- particularly after such a big c-bet (keep in mind there is a rake, too, not recorded in the HH). I just don't know if this is playing too scared. |
I definitely agree that calling is worse than folding since you have no clue where you are with someone still to act behind you. As mentioned raise/fold is an option too, but I think you're going to get played back at pretty often and you're probably behind here anyways. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
nilgiri Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007 Posts: 1510 Location: New Hampshire
|
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| renegades8 wrote: |
| I guess it doesn't matter quite as much in this hand given the board, but I generally like to c-bet around like 3/4 pot, especially at microstakes. Of course bet sizing doesn't mean as much at higher limits, but at micros I feel as though they sense that your size of bet is related to the size of your hand, and you're more likely to just take down pots if you bet larger. |
No, this definitely happens at 100NL as well. But I really think it depends on the texture of the board (even at lower stakes). For example, minbetting on a paired or 3-flushed flop is going to take it down more often than on a dry flop, simply because the board is scarier, and people either don't connect as often (on a paired board) or don't think they connected enough (on a 3-flush board). (Not that I recommend minbetting, I'm just using it to illustrate a point.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Riddim Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 7635 Location: Quitting smoking
|
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't read too many of the replies yet, but I'd call the flop in hand 1 unless I had reason to expect that villain would be checking air a lot there.
In the 2nd hand I bet 4 instead on the flop to make it a bit less likely I get floated/bluffraised. On the river I'm pretty tempted to shove (or at least 3-bet some amount) just because it seems so unlikely that you're ever behind. He needs to have either been trapping PF with a huge hand or have exactly AJ. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|