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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5663
Location: trying to get back to even
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: Standard? |
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BB is 21/4/2.1(210)
Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
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UTG+1: $15.80
MP1: $44
Hero (MP2): $25.35
CO: $8.15
BTN: $24.65
SB: $59.65
BB: $19.40
UTG: $31.50
Pre-Flop: K A dealt to Hero (MP2)
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $3, CO calls $3, 2 folds, BB raises to $19.40 and is All-In, MP1 folds, Hero calls $16.40, CO calls $5.15 and is All-In |
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jesse6520
Four of a Kind
Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 334
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| well i just started playing 10nl again and whenever i 3bet/call Ak/JJ they always have me crushed. Im starting to think that as crazy as their open raise ranges/ 3bet calling ranges are, their 4bet ranges in the micros are like ultra-tight, anyway this obv okay and if its a leak which is highly debatable its prob not a a big one so.... |
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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7402
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, fold. BB doesn't raise much, so he probably has something big. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5663
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| But...against a range as tight as QQ+, AK I'm a 1.55 to 1 dog and I'm getting 1.6 to 1 pot odds. If CO calls with likely a fairly wide range I'm getting 2 to 1 on my money. |
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jesse6520
Four of a Kind
Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 334
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| But...against a range as tight as QQ+, AK I'm a 1.55 to 1 dog and I'm getting 1.6 to 1 pot odds. If CO calls with likely a fairly wide range I'm getting 2 to 1 on my money. |
yeah thats why i never fold..... but its always AA kk idk dont worry about it its not a big leak.... if its a leak |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7329
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Fold. I think even QQ+, AK is a bit of a generous average for someone like that and you'll see KK+ more often than the other hands. In addition your equity will drop when CO calls even if his range is wide, so the overlay isn't as good of a thing as you make it seem. You'll also usually want him to fold the hands he does call with. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5663
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| Fold. I think even QQ+, AK is a bit of a generous average for someone like that and you'll see KK+ more often than the other hands. In addition your equity will drop when CO calls even if his range is wide, so the overlay isn't as good of a thing as you make it seem. You'll also usually want him to fold the hands he does call with. |
No it's not generous enough imo. I think his range is wider than that I was just saying even if it's that tight technically I'm still getting odds to call. I think a more reasonable range for this guy is TT+, AK. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7329
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Why, when he's 21/4 and cold 4-betting all-in for ~80 BBs? |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1367
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| I think a more reasonable range for this guy is TT+, AK. |
I have an extremely hard time believing someone who raises 4% of his hands PF is going to shove TT after a raise, a reraise, and a call. Even JJ is a stretch. He's usually going to call or fold. Unless he is tilting a bit or something.
I really think a guy like this is usually only going to shove QQ+,AK, sometimes calling with AK, maybe sometimes with QQ.
I don't know what CO's range is. In a tourney it would be very wide, sure, but in a cash game I just don't know. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 5864
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| i might not even 3-bet him |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5663
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Well it's been my experience recently that when these really tight players have a good hand that they want to play and then there's action in front of them they are more likely to just shove with that hand then fold it. It may just be a coincidence but I've seen a few of these tight guys do similar things in spots like this with a wider range than I would have thought and fwiw this was one of those times. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they get frustrated that they finally got a good hand and don't want to have to fold it. Also I think QQ+, AK is very reasonable and anything tighter than that is just too nitty even for a guy like this imo. He's not gonna fold QQ here. Anyway I'm getting correct odds barely against QQ+, AK. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5663
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| HuJwang wrote: |
| i might not even 3-bet him |
I didn't 3bet him. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 5864
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| HuJwang wrote: |
| i might not even 3-bet him |
I didn't 3bet him. |
oops
then yeah.... i think it's a pretty close decision with the dead money CO has in there. actually, i wonder if the CO cold calling would make the 21/4 more or less likely to push a QQ hand? bleh i dunno, folding can't really be horrible so i guess you could go ahead and fold. |
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side_tracked
Straight Flush
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 359
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| HuJwang wrote: |
| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| HuJwang wrote: |
| i might not even 3-bet him |
I didn't 3bet him. |
oops
then yeah.... i think it's a pretty close decision with the dead money CO has in there. actually, i wonder if the CO cold calling would make the 21/4 more or less likely to push a QQ hand? bleh i dunno, folding can't really be horrible so i guess you could go ahead and fold. |
i think the op know this is the correct play but in the heat of the monment prob being card dead it hard to lay down you can push it but call it i dont know although i do call this too much myself but i know just like you that it is not the correct play (i could be convinced other wise but im pretty sure its a fold but more fun to call) and i think that the op question is does the math support a call but there is more than math here when you know their is a high probility that you are in big trouble it a race or crush stiuation gl at the tables . |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5663
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| side_tracked wrote: |
i think the op know this is the correct play but in the heat of the monment prob being card dead it hard to lay down you can push it but call it i dont know although i do call this too much myself but i know just like you that it is not the correct play (i could be convinced other wise but im pretty sure its a fold but more fun to call) and i think that the op question is does the math support a call but there is more than math here when you know their is a high probility that you are in big trouble it a race or crush stiuation gl at the tables . |
No I wasn't card dead and this play wasn't made out of frustration. I think this decision is really close and I think either folding or calling doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the long run considering the odds that I already posted are really close to break even. However, since they were slightly in favor of calling, at least the way I have the range figured, I think calling was slightly correct. |
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