Online Poker Forum - Was this the right fold?

lovebeefstew · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Was this the right fold?

Here a fold i made just before. Obv if i made the call i would have had a nice hefty stack. As it happened I still cashed but would like to know what you guys would have done here.

Full Tilt Poker Game #6727983559: $24 + $2 Sit & Go (51138234), Table 2 - 250/500 - No Limit Hold'em - 6:40:35 ET - 2008/06/07
Seat 1: BustDaBay510 (10,455)
Seat 3: jimmyt007 (2,770)
Seat 4: DaPoker420Pimp (5,255)
Seat 5: LoveBeefStew (5,135)
Seat 6: Tedmann12 (15,000)
Seat 7: FLYINGCBAR (16,580)
Seat 8: MissKiwi D cups (4,370)
Seat 9: Midnight-PMS (7,935)
LoveBeefStew posts the small blind of 250
Tedmann12 posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LoveBeefStew [Qc Qh]
FLYINGCBAR raises to 1,000
MissKiwi D cups has 15 seconds left to act
MissKiwi D cups raises to 4,370, and is all in
Midnight-PMS folds
BustDaBay510 raises to 7,740
jimmyt007 folds
DaPoker420Pimp folds
LoveBeefStew has 15 seconds left to act
LoveBeefStew has requested TIME
LoveBeefStew folds
Tedmann12 has 15 seconds left to act
Tedmann12 is sitting out
Tedmann12 has timed out
Tedmann12 folds
FLYINGCBAR has 15 seconds left to act
FLYINGCBAR folds
BustDaBay510 shows [Kc Ad]
MissKiwi D cups shows [Js Jh]
Uncalled bet of 3,370 returned to BustDaBay510
*** FLOP *** [7d 6d Qs]
*** TURN *** [7d 6d Qs] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [7d 6d Qs 8c] [2s]
BustDaBay510 shows Ace King high
MissKiwi D cups shows a pair of Jacks
MissKiwi D cups wins the pot (10,490) with a pair of Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10,490 | Rake 0
Board: [7d 6d Qs 8c 2s]
Seat 1: BustDaBay510 showed [Kc Ad] and lost with Ace King high
Seat 3: jimmyt007 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: DaPoker420Pimp (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: LoveBeefStew (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Tedmann12 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: FLYINGCBAR folded before the Flop
Seat 8: MissKiwi D cups showed [Js Jh] and won (10,490) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 9: Midnight-PMS didn't bet (folded)

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:52 am Post subject:

Call this every day imo. Play to win, a small cash is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

Important Boy · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:13 am Post subject:

Snap Call Double-Fist Pump.

craigo6x · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:20 am Post subject:

Stop please. In tournament play this is an auto fold. UTG big stack min raises to 1000. before action gets to you two players with nothing invested move all in. Doesn't matter that your stack is so short. The action here indicates you are beat already.

esperz · Full House Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 220

I disagree. In tourneys, this is an instant call. This isn't a cash game.

You could make an arguement for folding in cash games, but here, opponent's range is everywhere from 88-AA, AJ-AK. There's only 2 hands of that which we don't want to face. It's been seen time and time again in all levels of tourney play through 1+.25 to 500+30.

80% of the time, he'll be facing a skewed coin flip in his favor.

craigo6x · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:05 am Post subject:

If UTG big stack didn't make the play he made, I might agree with you, but he's got everyone covered and he made a min raise from the worst position. So as it stands when it comes to OP, you have the big stack min raising. Despite that you have two players moving all in. One has AK at least so you are racing against one.

The best you can hope for is shared Aces by the all ins with UTG folding. More likely you are a 4-1 dog to someone.

Peepers_au · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:07 am Post subject:

Honest_Rob · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:56 am Post subject:

Fold. You're never ahead here. You have an UTG raiser, and UTG+1 re-raiser and a MP re-raiser. UTG can have a fairly wide range that your QQ would play well against. UTG+1 could be shoving a few more hands than typical because it's a tourney and he's more on the short side. He could have AQ/AJ some mid pairs besides the obv but if MP was on anything much wider than QQ+, AK I'd be very surprised and I would be weighting that range more toward KK+. It would take a pretty strong read for me to consider calling here. Your M is 7. You're not that desperate yet that you have to stack off here when you are clearly beat.

This post reminds me of the saying: After the third raise Queens are no good. I think it's usually referring to a HU pot but I think it applies just the same here. You have an open raiser, a re-raiser and a third raiser.

Running this through poker stove, assuming UTG folds with UTG+1 on AJ+ , 99+ and MP on QQ+, AK calling is about break even considering the pot odd were getting. If we weight MP's range more toward KK+ then we are a big underdog and it's a clear fold.

esperz · Full House Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 220

I'm looking at this a second time... And I still remain with my decision.

I'll grant you the original UTG is somewhat of an unknown and would be the most likely reason I'd fold. A min-raise is a legit raise at these stakes (500 being the big blind, table might be tight). He could have anywhere from 88+ to AJ. The 2nd UTG is pretty obviously looking at a pocket pair hoping for (at least) a coinflip. I'd put him anywhere from 99+, AK. ...But... I couldn't put BustDaBay on a high pocket pair. I can't. Everyone else is taking their time considering their cards, he just simply min raises right over. For what? No one is in front of him with chips except the original UTG. The man doesn't need to 'try' to lure him in into playing the hand, as it'd be past all-ins even on the flop. The only reason he'd min-raise is if he was trying to protect himself in case orginal UTG shoves. It really looks like he's forcing him to fold. The only hand that makes sense with this kind of play is AK.

I'll try to put this in a diffrent light. Let's say you're in a 20-something dollar tournament, turbo. 1 min-raiser early, 1 short stacked that shoves. You have AK. You already know its a coinflip against short stacked shover, but the original UTG has you covered and some. What would you do? You'd try to scare him out of the pot, trying to make it a HU situation. You could shove, but you really don't know what original UTG has. You min-raise, throw in half your chips and hope to god he doesn't shove you in. You try to communicate, in so many words, 'I got this guy, just fold.'

So, if I had QQ right after that guy, I'd shove, almost instantly.

...This is besides the fact that our hero is close enough to the 10bb situation himself. When in those blinds, I'd think most of us would shove period, regardless of everything else. We don't have too many hands to play if we don't try to make the lead right here and now with at least a skewed coin flip.

Honest_Rob · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject:

DrewGodofPoker · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject:

I'm guessing that this is the 24+2 90-person tourney. The ranges these players could have in that donkament are very wide.

Rob and Craig I totally understand what your saying. If you knew that the UTG+1 and the MP were solid players it would be difficult to call....a raise, reraise, and a re-reraise indicates AA or KK in most tourneys. However, this tournament has an extra helping of terrible players and with an m of 7 I call and hope for the best. UTG+1 and MP can be sharing AK, have JJ, or even have AQ or 10s judging by what I've seen in that tourney.

Unless you know for a fact that MP is a good player I probably would have to call here and hope for the best.

bdbranch · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject:

If this was a cash game, I'd look towards folding. The problem I have with saying the same in this situation is that it's getting close to shortstack situation. And if as I'd suspect, the other tables have larger stacks then this one, it's important to gain chips, just to compete. As such I'd be tempted to call.

lovebeefstew · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject:

Honest_Rob · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject:

lol Were the results always in the OP? I just noticed they're there. I wouldn't post the results for future HH because it can influence the feedback you get which I think it may have in some cases here.

lovebeefstew · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject:

yeh maybe Rob. Ill remember that for next time. thanks for backing me up haha

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