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mgodd
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: Shove or fold? |
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It seems like I have been in these type of spots a lot lately, needless to say, none of them going my way. Just going to post some hands here for feedback. Sorry for posting so many hands, I have just been running so crappy for the last few days, and just trying to figure out if I can improve my shoving selection in these types of spots or if it is just bad luck 
EDIT: These are all turbos by the way.
Poker Stars, $7 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 75/150 Blinds, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BTN: 3,400
SB: 1,835
BB: 2,540
UTG: 2,230
MP: 1,755
Hero (CO): 1,740
Pre-Flop: (225) 5 5 dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, Hero raises to 1,740 and is All-In, BTN calls 1,740, 2 folds
Poker Stars, $7 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
UTG: 1,725
BTN: 2,110
Hero (SB): 2,070
BB: 7,595
Pre-Flop: (300) K 8 dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, Hero raises to 2,070 and is All-In, BB calls 1,870
Poker Stars, $7 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 75/150 Blinds, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
UTG: 880
MP: 1,120
CO: 2,330
BTN: 7,085
SB: 875
Hero (BB): 1,210
Pre-Flop: (225) 9 9 dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, MP raises to 1,120 and is All-In, 3 folds, Hero calls 970
Poker Stars, $7 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 75/150 Blinds, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
CO: 3,555
BTN: 3,690
Hero (SB): 1,225
BB: 2,060
UTG: 2,970
Pre-Flop: (225) 7 J dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, Hero raises to 1,225 and is All-In, BB calls 1,075
Poker Stars, $7 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Hero (UTG): 2,330
BTN: 3,130
SB: 2,540
BB: 5,500
Pre-Flop: (300) 5 5 dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to 2,330 and is All-In, BTN folds, SB raises to 2,540 and is All-In, BB folds
Poker Stars, $7 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 25/50 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
CO: 2,920
Hero (BTN): 1,910
SB: 1,270
BB: 1,755
UTG: 1,370
UTG+1: 2,065
MP1: 705
MP2: 1,505
Pre-Flop: (75) K A dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, MP1 calls 50, MP2 folds, CO calls 50, Hero raises to 200, SB raises to 1,270 and is All-In, BB folds, MP1 calls 655 and is All-In, CO folds, Hero calls 1,070
Poker Stars, $6 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 25/50 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
UTG: 2,105
UTG+1: 675
UTG+2: 820
MP1: 1,640
MP2: 2,505
CO: 1,195
Hero (BTN): 690
SB: 2,485
BB: 1,385
Pre-Flop: (75) K Q dealt to Hero (BTN)
4 folds, MP2 raises to 150, CO folds, Hero calls 150, SB calls 125, BB folds
Flop: (500) K 9 4 (3 Players)
SB checks, MP2 bets 350, Hero raises to 540 and is All-In, SB folds, MP2 calls 190
Poker Stars, $6 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Hero (UTG): 2,350
BTN: 3,565
SB: 3,384
BB: 4,201
Pre-Flop: (700) 2 A dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to 2,325 and is All-In, BTN raises to 3,540 and is All-In, 2 folds
Poker Stars, $6 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
CO: 3,460
BTN: 2,025
SB: 1,685
BB: 4,045
Hero (UTG): 2,285
Pre-Flop: (725) A J dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to 2,260 and is All-In, CO folds, BTN calls 2,000 and is All-In, SB calls 1,460 and is All-In, BB folds
Poker Stars, $6 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 75/150 Blinds, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
SB: 6,950
Hero (BB): 1,310
UTG: 1,965
BTN: 3,275
Pre-Flop: (225) Q Q dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, BTN raises to 750, SB raises to 4,350, Hero calls 1,160 and is All-In, BTN folds
Poker Stars, $6 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BB: 3,365
Hero (UTG): 2,160
BTN: 1,650
SB: 2,565
Pre-Flop: (725) A J dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to 2,135 and is All-In, BTN calls 1,625 and is All-In, 3 folds
Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, Satellite to Midnight Madness!, 250/500 Blinds, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Hero (BB): 2,110
UTG: 960
MP: 1,710
CO: 3,685
BTN: 895
SB: 4,140
Pre-Flop: (750) 2 A dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, MP calls 500, CO calls 500, 2 folds, Hero raises to 2,110 and is All-In, MP calls 1,210 and is All-In, CO calls 1,610
Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, Satellite to Midnight Madness!, 250/500 Blinds, 3 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BTN: 6,660
SB: 2,930
Hero (BB): 3,910
Pre-Flop: (750) 5 5 dealt to Hero (BB)
BTN folds, SB raises to 2,930 and is All-In, Hero calls 2,430
Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, Satellite to Midnight Madness!, 50/100 Blinds, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BB: 2,848
UTG: 2,485
UTG+1: 1,295
Hero (MP): 1,120
CO: 2,336
BTN: 650
SB: 2,766
Pre-Flop: (150) 9 9 dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG calls 100, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to 1,120 and is All-In, SB raises to 2,766 and is All-In
Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, Satellite to Midnight Madness!, 80/160 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BB: 965
UTG: 2,800
UTG+1: 2,185
MP1: 2,170
MP2: 1,375
CO: 1,335
BTN: 1,375
Hero (SB): 1,295
Pre-Flop: (240) Q A dealt to Hero (SB)
4 folds, CO raises to 1,335 and is All-In, BTN folds, Hero calls 1,215 and is All-In, BB folds |
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Starvingwriter
Full House
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Hand 1. Your M is low, sure, but so is everyone elses. That's just the nature of playing Turbo. You have a fair amount of chips and now you're risking your whole stack just for the blinds. I'd personally either just call (if the SB/BB is weak enough to let that slide) or raise to 2.5x the BB (if they aren't). Then you can see the flop before you make more decisions.
Hand 2. If you have a reputation for getting impatient or playing lose, the BB is likely to look you up if he's holding anything solid. Personally I'd raise to 3x the BB and go to the flop before committing any more. Losing the hand would cripple you though, so a shove isn't out of the question.
Hand 3: Sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do. I'd make this call.
Hand 4: This is junk, and if you get a call you're probably toast. If your BB is weak, limp in. If he's likely to give you resistance preflop, I'd just fold and wait for a better hand.
Hand 5: Again the all in with the low pocket pair. I don't like this, as any callers are going to likely be at least a coin flip, but might have you dominated as well. You aren't dangerously low on chips. Generally if I'm playing a low pocket pair, I want to get to the flop as cheaply as possible, then make a bet if I hit a set or the board looks pretty dry. I know some will disagree with me as a pair is pretty solid four handed, but if you're looking for somewhere to shove, I think you can find either a better hand, or better position, or both, than this.
Hand 6: I can see shoving with this. I personally wouldn't given that you have two all in raises off your initial raise. It's likely one of these players has a pair of some kind, which makes you a slight underdog to them. If you have a good read on the shoving players, that should give you insight on whether to call or not. If you don't have a good read, IMO this is a great spot to fold - you're out of harms way in a situation it's unlikely you'll be a clear favorite, and you'll gain valuable information on your opponents when they reveal their cards.
As a player, I'm looking to control pot sizes and make decisions after the flop, based on reads of my opponents.
If you're new to poker, or generally not that great at reading your opponent, I would say all of these moves are justified. As you get more comfortable, however, you really want to avoid preflop shoves on a regular basis, so you leave yourself room to maneuver and make good decisions. |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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I think you shove too early sometimes. E.g. the last hand, you still have more than 10xBB, why are you shoving? I'm not saying you should fold the hand, but a normal raise and seeing the flop first is still possible here, I think (and the same goes for some of the other hands you posted).
I've seen people with only 7 chips come back and win the whole goddamn SnG. I agree that's an extreme example, but it shows why you shouldn't start shoving TOO early. I usually start doing it with about 7xBB left.
It happens so often that there are several players left with about 10xBB on the bubble, I don't see why I should be the one taking the extra risk there. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 929
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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My thoughts...
55 - no need to shove this, with over 10 BBs. Make a 2.5BB raise, or min-raise if that has been takung blinds at the table, and you can fold to a shove behind.
K8o in SB - with 10 bbs, I think this shove is fine.
99 in BB - this one is rough, I'm honestly not sure. If he hasn't been pushing much I think its a fold, as you lose tournament equity (average expectation of payout) by calling I think.
J7 in SB - I think this is not quite good enough to shove given this spot, but it isn't that far off. As an aside I think shoving too wide here is a lesser mistake to not shoving wide enough.
55 UTG - again, more than 10BBs you don't need to shove this. Put in a lesser raise, 500ish.
AK - its an ugly spot, but I think you have to call here.
KQ - why are you calling preflop? If it isn't some sort of stop n go plan I think thats horrible, and even if it is this isn't a good spot for that either really. If you think there is much chance the original raiser will fold to a shove, then shove (even a 25% chance is good enough imo). If not, you can fold it.
A2o - A2 plays so bad when called, I think this one is very borderline even with only 6 BBs.
AJ - insta-shove.
QQ - another ugly spot, but with the original rasier quite possibly folding and leaving the extra 750 in the pot undefended, i don't see how you can fold.
AJs - another insta-shove
A2 in BB - yuck. If you think there is much chance at all of them folding to a shove, then I guess its ok, but if they pay any mind to pot odds they won't (or even if they don't but are just loose). Stop and go (check, then shove the flop) might be worth trying here.
55 in BB - I'm really not sure here. It is +chip EV to call for sure, but I imagine ICM would say its very marginal.
99 - I'm ok with the all in here at 11BBs. If the pair was much smaller though I don't know if I'd like it.
AQ - calling depends on how active the CO has been in shoving imo.
I disagree with starving writer's last paragraph, knowing when and when not to shove is essential for a serious SNG player imo, and in the spots where you are under 10 BBs, anything other than shoving or folding is usually really bad. |
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mgodd
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input. dc, the first 2 hands I posted with 55 with about 11-12 big blinds, you say to just put in a normal raise and fold to shove. The reason I am reluctant to do this is if I get flat called, that really puts me in an ugly spot on the flop as far as c-betting goes with about 8-9 big blinds left. Do you think I should just shove any flop in this spot, or just shut down and go check fold? Also even though I have slightly over 10 big blinds at the moment, if I pass on the hand now, especially with it being a turbo, I will very soon be at much less than that by the time I do pick up a good hand in the right spot.
| Starvingwriter wrote: |
As a player, I'm looking to control pot sizes and make decisions after the flop, based on reads of my opponents.
If you're new to poker, or generally not that great at reading your opponent, I would say all of these moves are justified. As you get more comfortable, however, you really want to avoid preflop shoves on a regular basis, so you leave yourself room to maneuver and make good decisions. |
I don't have a problem with this when playing deep stacked poker, but in these stages I think it's really best to either shove or fold. If you try to limp into pots, or even put in small raises, many players read that as weak and will shove over you all day, putting you in a pretty bad spot.
| Badlydrawnboy wrote: |
I think you shove too early sometimes. E.g. the last hand, you still have more than 10xBB, why are you shoving? I'm not saying you should fold the hand, but a normal raise and seeing the flop first is still possible here, I think (and the same goes for some of the other hands you posted).
I've seen people with only 7 chips come back and win the whole goddamn SnG. I agree that's an extreme example, but it shows why you shouldn't start shoving TOO early. I usually start doing it with about 7xBB left.
It happens so often that there are several players left with about 10xBB on the bubble, I don't see why I should be the one taking the extra risk there. |
There are a few reasons why I don't like waiting that long to make a move. One being that you are more likely to be called down by more than one player with such a short stack. And if I do manage to double up, I am still not in real great chip position and am more than likely immediately looking to double up again. Also, if I hit a cold run of cards at this time and the blinds go up again, I am really in bad shape with 3-4 big blinds left. |
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