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nilgiri · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: $24+2 45-player SnG walkthrough

I've started playing the 45-player SnGs more now, after noticing that Chris Klecz seems to be playing them like mad. I figure maybe he's onto something, and they are really soft. Well, they are pretty soft. But I'm not sure I know the best way to play them yet. I figure others might be interested in a 45-player walkthough as well, so here we go!

You know the drill, I'll post hands up to a point where I have questions. Feel free to comment on other hands, though, if you think I should have acted differently.

It looks like the first hand messed up. I was dealt Q5o UTG and folded. I'm assuming there isn't much to talk about there... Smile

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HAND #2
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

napoli66 (BTN): 1,485
Wood16 (SB): 1,470
Hero (BB): 1,500
landocaly (UTG): 1,500
XBELLO (UTG+1): 1,500
fladimiir (UTG+2): 1,605
Tyler AAAA (MP1): 1,500
Mcclaud222 (MP2): 1,440
Chouby75 (CO): 1,500

Pre-Flop: (45) K

3

dealt to Hero (BB)
7 folds, Wood16 calls 15, Hero ???

Wood16 completed like a weak fish... Should I raise this or just check and see a flop? I probably have the best hand right now.

dcdoorknob · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject:

Ooh, I love 45 mans. They are really soft. My theory is that they are inhabited by a lot of people who want the possibility of a big(ish) payoff but are too impatient to deal with a bigger MTT which might take twice as long. I haven't played a ton of these above $10, the only time I did I ran ice cold until my roll compelled me to move back down, which was really frustrating since I still saw all the terrible players all around me but couldn't make anything happen.

Anyways, I'd check the K3o. Too many unknowns will call a raise in this spot just for the heck of it imo, and I don't want to be building a bigish pot with K3 on the 2nd hand. Raising is certainly an option in a similar spot later when the blinds are significantly bigger (and some actual reads are possible).

nilgiri · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject:

Well, you may have guessed, I raised. (Sorry if I'm going too fast, but I don't consider this hand that interesting... I figure there are more hands later to have a longer discussion on!) I've been playing more LAG recently as I get better post-flop skills. When SB open-limps in and I'm BB, I consider that prime raising time.

Anyway, I'm going to assume a c-bet after he checks this flop is standard?

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HAND #2
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Pre-Flop: (45) K

3

dealt to Hero (BB)
7 folds, Wood16 calls 15, Hero raises to 90, Wood16 calls 60

Flop: (180) 4

6

2

(2 Players)
Wood16 checks, Hero bets 90, Wood16 folds

Results: 180 Pot
Hero mucked K

3

and WON 180 (+90 NET)

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HAND #3
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

napoli66 (CO): 1,485
Wood16 (BTN): 1,380
Hero (SB): 1,590
landocaly (BB): 1,500
XBELLO (UTG): 1,500
fladimiir (UTG+1): 1,605
Tyler AAAA (UTG+2): 1,500
Mcclaud222 (MP1): 1,440
Chouby75 (MP2): 1,500

Pre-Flop: (45) 6

K

dealt to Hero (SB)
7 folds, Hero raises to 90, landocaly folds

Results: 60 Pot
Hero mucked 6

K

and WON 60 (+30 NET)

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HAND #4
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

napoli66 (MP2): 1,485
Wood16 (CO): 1,380
Hero (BTN): 1,620
landocaly (SB): 1,470
XBELLO (BB): 1,500
fladimiir (UTG): 1,605
Tyler AAAA (UTG+1): 1,500
Mcclaud222 (UTG+2): 1,440
Chouby75 (MP1): 1,500

Pre-Flop: (45) 4

7

dealt to Hero (BTN)
5 folds, Wood16 raises to 60, 3 folds

Results: 75 Pot
Wood16 mucked and WON 75 (+45 NET)

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HAND #5
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

napoli66 (MP1): 1,485
Wood16 (MP2): 1,425
Hero (CO): 1,620
landocaly (BTN): 1,455
XBELLO (SB): 1,470
fladimiir (BB): 1,605
Tyler AAAA (UTG): 1,500
Mcclaud222 (UTG+1): 1,440
Chouby75 (UTG+2): 1,500

Pre-Flop: (45) A

K

dealt to Hero (CO)
3 folds, napoli66 raises to 105, Wood16 folds, Hero ???

Well here's a nice hand, facing a raise from MP. How do we handle this? Obviously we aren't foding...

Comments on #3 and #4 are welcome, too.

LostOstrich · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject:

#5: I'm 3-Betting here, as flat calling will often induce at least one further call from the remaining players.

If he comes back over the top, I think you can fold pretty comfortably. Not many players are 4-betting with AQ here, even in a soft game. Most likely, he calls. This gives you position, and a fair idea of his range (Ax, pp<JJ, possibly suited broadways if he's particularly dumb).

You've been very active already, so bear that in mind as we play after the flop.

Pokit2s · Message Board Junkie Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 1261

I'd raise it up to 320 or so and see what happened. Probably fold if he were to push after that. I guess you cant really tell this early but he seems pretty tight. Then again my judgement might be all off because I'm running bbbaaadddd right now....

c0pp3r · Pair Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 33

3 bet / c-bet almost any flop... Shocked

LOL - Did I say that?
I'm TAG - I sware, really. Cool

dcdoorknob · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:

I think calling and 3-betting are both acceptable. Position is good, so I think I prefer calling. When playing with bad players, you can afford to keep pots smaller until they decide to donate chips to you imo. Folding to a shove after a 3-bet feels pretty questionable, I'd rather not encourage the possibility.

I'm not surprised at all the raise w/ K3 got called, which is why I don't prefer the raise, but c-betting that flop is standard. Raising w/ the K6 is a little laggish but completely fine if that's what you're going for.

nilgiri · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject:

Yeah, there is no way I'm flatting this. EDIT: Just read dc's post. I can see keeping the pot small with bad players in it, but wouldn't I rather have the bad players call 3-bets with bad hands?

Here's the way I see it: I have a looser image right now, so my 3-bet will likely be called a bit lighter. There is absolutely no way I'm folding to a 4-bet with these stacks, this early in a 45-man game. I'd actually like opinions about that, because it seems like there are other opinions. I just can't see that I'm behind enough and by enough once I have committed so many chips to warrant a fold, ever, particularly this early before all the donks have been eliminated.

IMHO I'm looking to get it all in ASAP. I figure if I run into AA or KK, that sucks but so be it. I'm ok flipping with other PPs, though, and I'll probably get calls from AQ, AJ, and worse this early.

So I just shoved... thoughts?

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HAND #5
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Pre-Flop: (45) A

K

dealt to Hero (CO)
3 folds, napoli66 raises to 105, Wood16 folds, Hero raises to 1,620 and is All-In, landocaly folds, XBELLO calls 1,455 and is All-In, 2 folds

Flop: (3,075) 6

2

J

(2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: (3,075) J

(2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: (3,075) 9

(2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 3,075 Pot
Hero showed A

K

(a pair of Jacks) and WON 1,537 (+67 NET)
XBELLO showed K

A

(a pair of Jacks) and WON 1,538 (+68 NET)

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HAND #6
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

napoli66 (UTG+2): 1,380
Wood16 (MP1): 1,425
Hero (MP2): 1,687
landocaly (CO): 1,455
XBELLO (BTN): 1,538
fladimiir (SB): 1,575
Tyler AAAA (BB): 1,500
Mcclaud222 (UTG): 1,440
Chouby75 (UTG+1): 1,500

Pre-Flop: (45) 9

5

dealt to Hero (MP2)
Mcclaud222 calls 30, Chouby75 raises to 90, 5 folds, fladimiir raises to 240, 2 folds, Chouby75 calls 150

Flop: (540) K

4

K

(2 Players)
fladimiir bets 540, Chouby75 folds

Results: 540 Pot
fladimiir mucked and WON 540 (+300 NET)

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HAND #7
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Full Tilt Poker, $24 + $2 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

napoli66 (UTG+1): 1,380
Wood16 (UTG+2): 1,425
Hero (MP1): 1,687
landocaly (MP2): 1,455
XBELLO (CO): 1,538
fladimiir (BTN): 1,875
Tyler AAAA (SB): 1,470
Mcclaud222 (BB): 1,410
Chouby75 (UTG): 1,260

Pre-Flop: (45) 4

6

dealt to Hero (MP1)
Chouby75 folds, napoli66 calls 30, Wood16 folds, Hero calls 30, landocaly folds, XBELLO calls 30, 2 folds, Mcclaud222 checks

Flop: (135) 7

K

T

(4 Players)
Mcclaud222 checks, napoli66 checks, Hero checks, XBELLO checks

Turn: (135) 2

(4 Players)
Mcclaud222 checks, napoli66 checks, Hero ???

So, like I said, I'm being a bit more LAG. A suited gapper in MP after a limp seems like a fine time to limp myself, especially at a table that seems fairly unwilling to raise PF. Smile

Obviously no one seems to want this pot. Should I try to take it down like a good LAG? How much to bet?

LostOstrich · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject:

#5: You're looking to get it all-in pre with AK? Why? You have an M of 30 if you 3-Bet then fold to a shove, so 3-Bet then fold to a shove imo. Who wants to flip for their stack this early, when you have a good edge in skill against the oppostion? Flipping is a BEST CASE SCENARIO if a shove comes, as I disagree that AQ and AJ are common here.

#7: I'd fold pre, but you're playing deliberately loose so limping is acceptable. The check on flop is fine, as you have poor position (a good reason to fold pre, but still), and you definitely need to bet the turn. I'd pot it, as it achieves two goals:
- A higher single heart gets bad odds to call
- It can be construed as a clumsy steal attempt.

Badlydrawnboy · Flush Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 127

#7:

Great turn card for you. Bet something they will call. I'm thinking of half the pot or slightly less. You're trying to get as much calls as possible. If it doesn't work, so be it.

Pokit2s · Message Board Junkie Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 1261

As played, I'd bet about 3/4 pot on the turn. I would have thrown in a pot sized bet on the flop to try and take down the pot though, as it seems like no one wanted it. It just seems silly to check and wait for a big hand when you have a good chance of taking down the pot sooner.

nilgiri · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject:

Well, I should qualify that. I'm looking to get it all in with AK pre the same way I'd be looking to get it all in with a combo draw + overs. I'm counting on some FE.

As far as taking that chance this early -- I don't think I'm flipping -- if I can double up this early, I have big advantage. If I just take the pot as-is, it's still a nice pot. The reason I am playing LAG is because I am trying to get a big stack fairly early. I think this is a good way to achieve that goal. I'm interested if people think a 45-man SnG is large enough to employ this strategy? Obviously, it works well for many players in MTTs, but how large does an MTT need to be for it to be a good strategy?

I agree that if a 4-bet comes, AQ and AJ are going to be very rare. But I think AQ and AJ are calling my shove fairly often. That's why I'm shoving rather than 3-betting. I'm going to get a slightly wider range of calls for my 3-bet, but I won't know where I am OTF, plus I'm not often going to be called by a worse hand if I get it all in OTF. If I shove, I am still ahead if I get a call, but (a) I get it all in, and (b) I don't have to worry about what to do if I miss the flop. (Does this line of reasoning make sense?)

LostOstrich · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject:

I don't like it. Your perceived skill advantage should lead you to WANT to play flops, I think shoving AK so as to avoid flop play is pretty weak, this early.

I still disagree that you're ahead if called. OK, you're correct in saying that lots of idiots will call with AQ and AJ. Hell, some will call with KTos. But it's still much more likely that a call will come from a medium to high pair, if a call comes.

Anyone who's calling all-in with AQ or AJ, is almost always calling a 3-bet, BTW. These players aren't shoving after you 3-bet, they're calling because they like calling raises with pretty starting hands. So you still have a chance of stacking them on a wide range of flops, and you're therefore not losing much value from these hands by refraining from shoving pre.

nilgiri · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject:

LostOstrich · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject:

Good reasoning. I still favour my 3-Bet over your shove, once we add in the fact that other players are yet to act. We get information with the 3-Bet, without committing everything.

I'm basically uncomfortable with shoving AK, against bad players, when the stacks are deep. I just don't think you need to do it.

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