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gamblingparlour
Pair
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 24
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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You have an overpair on the turn and there is no flush draw or straight draw.
For those saying this is an easy fold, WTF!?!?!
I would like to see what hands you actually gamble with.
I would put the opponent on JQ or some hand like that. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 6681
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenDomer9 wrote: |
Sorry for chiming in so late, but a big +1 for mucking here. I have a ton of FR $25NL experience and you are just never, ever, good here. Also, please note that said opinion is coming from a guy who hates giving these low stakes players credit. This spot is really tough to not give the villain credit though.
Into the muck, high five monitor, we save monies! |
How often do seemingly decent players in Rob's spot get to showdown with an overpair or worse? This seems like a really great bluff spot because it looks so strong and hero will have a hand better than an overpair so rarely. My concern is that hero will have an overpair so often and people just hate folding those, so I'm curious what your experience tells you about the range a decent 25NL player gets to showdown with here.
Personally I have way too little FR experience to have any clue. I'm used to 6max games where even nits get it in for 200 BB in a small PF pot vs. a line that screams set (this may be slightly biased by my only somewhat recent attempt at bluffing a nit off of an overpair). |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 6681
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| gamblingparlour wrote: |
You have an overpair on the turn and there is no flush draw or straight draw.
For those saying this is an easy fold, WTF!?!?!
I would like to see what hands you actually gamble with.
I would put the opponent on JQ or some hand like that. |
It's a bad thing that there are few draws, because it makes it hard for villain to have a draw. In this spot I think anything but a set is a clear fold. With 44 you probably have to get it in because you beat JT.
Villain is described as a seemingly solid player, so him having QJ seems a bit ridiculous. How would he ever get to the turn like this with no pair, no draw out of position? |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
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This is why I hate the idea of these types of preflop raises with KK.
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??? Hate the idea of these preflop raises? What are you suggesting we do preflop? Anything but a raise is super fishy. |
I'm pretty sure he means that the raise is too small. bdbranch, with stacks this deep we're going to need to make some big folds with overpairs postflop unless we make ridiculously huge PF raises, so we might as well make a normal raise to get him to call with speculative hands thinking he has implied odds. There's also that thing about not completely giving your hand away by your raise size that I mentioned in some other thread a while back. A bigger raise means that we have to make it with an even tighter range than we normally would UTG, which is no fun. |
Yes I believe that the raise is too small. Generally, these hands are not easy to walk away from. I don't believe in giving villians plenty of opportunity to take large sums away from you with garbage. I say make them pay a proper price for that opportunity. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1826
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| He raised 4 times the big blind. How much more would you raise? If you raise any more than that, you will be basically telling the table that you have a big pocket pair and they can easily adjust. Also, whenever you raise 3-4 times the big blind, you then tell your opponent that you don't have a big pair. That strategy is extremely exploitable. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
| He raised 4 times the big blind. How much more would you raise? If you raise any more than that, you will be basically telling the table that you have a big pocket pair and they can easily adjust. Also, whenever you raise 3-4 times the big blind, you then tell your opponent that you don't have a big pair. That strategy is extremely exploitable. |
You raise enough to get rid of garbage. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1826
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
| He raised 4 times the big blind. How much more would you raise? If you raise any more than that, you will be basically telling the table that you have a big pocket pair and they can easily adjust. Also, whenever you raise 3-4 times the big blind, you then tell your opponent that you don't have a big pair. That strategy is extremely exploitable. |
You raise enough to get rid of garbage. |
Quantify that plz |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
| bdbranch wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
| He raised 4 times the big blind. How much more would you raise? If you raise any more than that, you will be basically telling the table that you have a big pocket pair and they can easily adjust. Also, whenever you raise 3-4 times the big blind, you then tell your opponent that you don't have a big pair. That strategy is extremely exploitable. |
You raise enough to get rid of garbage. |
Quantify that plz |
Well Flying_Kiwi in another current post recommended a 5-6 bb raise on TT. I would be relatively happy with that. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1826
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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So you raise to 5-6bb with KK+. But you raise less than that with any other hand. And you see no problem with this? You don't think anyone can catch on to that?
Bet sizing based on your hand strength is just a terrible strategy. If you play like that against any good competition, you will get crushed. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 5188
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
| bdbranch wrote: |
| drtre1987 wrote: |
| He raised 4 times the big blind. How much more would you raise? If you raise any more than that, you will be basically telling the table that you have a big pocket pair and they can easily adjust. Also, whenever you raise 3-4 times the big blind, you then tell your opponent that you don't have a big pair. That strategy is extremely exploitable. |
You raise enough to get rid of garbage. |
Quantify that plz |
Well Flying_Kiwi in another current post recommended a 5-6 bb raise on TT. I would be relatively happy with that. |
Kiwi was talking about a spot where there were two limpers in front of hero. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
So you raise to 5-6bb with KK+. But you raise less than that with any other hand. And you see no problem with this? You don't think anyone can catch on to that?
Bet sizing based on your hand strength is just a terrible strategy. If you play like that against any good competition, you will get crushed. |
As you know, this is 1 of 3 similar current thread. Below is some material from one of these.
| Riddim wrote: |
| I think this is fine but the river feels a bit awkward to me. Since the stacks are what they are and the 8 hit basically all straight draws in some way I'm inclined to just shove like you did. If the river was a blank and stacks were slightly bigger I think a c/c is way better though. There just aren't very many hands that can call your shove and without an 8 hitting there's a lot more no pair hands that will make a desperation shove if you check. |
| mistaken69 wrote: |
| i agree about c/cing river when he's got a bigger stack. It allows him to bluff all sorts of random floats if he's an idiot and more importantly missed draws. Seems standard given stack sizes. |
So lets see, Riddim says to shove the river, mistaken is clearly looking to at least call any raise (if not reraise), yet they both advocated a small raise and giving rubbish plenty of opportunity to hit, big. Sorry but that kind of thinking is going to lose big dollars.
When you slowplay and lowraise your KK you ain't as clever as you believe you are. You are giving 'villians' plenty of opportunity to outdraw you with rubbish and take all of your chips. Additionally, these hands are a rare opportunity to get your money in as a huge favourite. It's stupid to wait until the turn or river to put in a steep raise. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1826
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| whatever. think what you want. if you don't want any help getting better then just keep arguing. have you ever wondered why everyone here shares the exact opposite opinion than you on pretty much every poker strategy topic? maybe its because you aren't as good as you think you are. please put your ego aside and listen to what better players have to say. you'll never get better if the only person you take advice from is yourself. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
| whatever. think what you want. if you don't want any help getting better then just keep arguing. have you ever wondered why everyone here shares the exact opposite opinion than you on pretty much every poker strategy topic? maybe its because you aren't as good as you think you are. please put your ego aside and listen to what better players have to say. you'll never get better if the only person you take advice from is yourself. |
| bdbranch wrote: |
So lets see, Riddim says to shove the river, mistaken is clearly looking to at least call any raise (if not reraise), yet they both advocated a small raise and giving rubbish plenty of opportunity to hit, big. Sorry but that kind of thinking is going to lose big dollars.
1 : When you slowplay and lowraise your KK you ain't as clever as you believe you are.2 : You are giving 'villians' plenty of opportunity to outdraw you with rubbish and take all of your chips.3 : Additionally, these hands are a rare opportunity to get your money in as a huge favourite. It's stupid to wait until the turn or river to put in a steep raise. |
1 : "The second reason for steep raises/reraises is that often you are not being as tricky as you think when you slowplay your hand."
2 : "But his own unwillingness to raise the pot pre-flop allowed the small blind to be in a pot he almost surely would not have been in had a proper raise been made".
3 : "The third and perhaps most overlooked reason for putting in a steep raise with premium hands is that these hands offer you a rare opportunity to get your money in as a huge favorite".
- - - - - - - - -
drtre1987, go tell Brandon Adams, Hal Helms and various other bluff experts that they all don't know what they are talking about. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1826
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Link to that information? It sounds like you are completely taking it out of context. That really doesn't sound like they are talking about preflop raise sizes. Especially point 2. It says his "unwillingness to raise the pot pre-flop allowed the small blind to be in a pot...". That sounds like they are talking about not limping. Notice they said that he didn't raise at all. That is totally different than what we are talking about. But all of those points seem to be general statements about slow playing. That really has nothing to do with bet sizing your preflop raises, especially in the context I'm talking about. Potting it preflop is not considered slow playing.
And go to www.cardrunners.com and ask them about how they vary their pf raise sizes based on their hand strength. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| The material talks about both not raising and low raises. Btw, what don't you understand about the word steep? |
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