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xyberman
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 539
Location: One step over the line
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 Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: Poker: Sport or not a sport? |
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http://media.www.roundupnews.com/media/storage/paper474/news/2008/05/01/Sports/Poker.Sport.Or.Not.A.Sport-3359978-page2.shtml
Poker: Sport or not a sport?
By: Anthony Reyes and Richard Reyes
Issue date: 5/1/08 Section: Sports
Media Credit: Reyes and Reyes
Anthony Reyes
Sports Reporter
Professional poker must be considered a sport becasue there are millions of players all over the world playing various forms. Professional players actually earn a living by playing poker, much like other athletes.
Although it can be debated that the game may be played by anyone in almost any situation, one could argue that given the materials, any sport could be played by anyone at any place and time. There is also the argument that sports require an athletic activity such as running or jumping, and in most cases this is true. However, there are exceptions. The length of poker matches, which can last for days, is comparable to the length of most sporting events.
The game of poker, when played professionally, is very challenging for a person because of the intense mental strain they must undergo in order to be successfulPoker players engage in true competition, much like other sports the biggest, strongest fastest athletes don't always win nor do the players with the best hand always win. Another aspect of poker is that it is one of the fairest sports imaginable; everyone at the table is equal, no matter their size, beliefs or ethnicity.
There is also the strategy of using a "poker face" or reading your opponents that is implemented. These skills are similar to a base runner in baseball reading the pitcher to see when he can steal a base or in basketball, when a defender reads a passer's eyes to make a steal.
The mental aspect is even greater in poker than in other sports. I would compare the intense mentality of professional poker to coaching in professional sports. In most sports, the athletes are discouraged to think and are occasionally punished for over-thinking. The plays athletes make are often those they have practiced, so the act of simple execution is all that is necessary.
Another aspect of poker to examine is the management of luck, but every sport has a facet of fortune. For example, in baseball a hit ball can hit a patch of bad dirt in the infield and bounce oddly. In other sports such as basketball, shots are frequently made because of lucky bounces or rolls. In fact, most long shots made (i.e. past half court) are because of luck.
The bottom line is when players are gambling with such large amounts of money, equivalent to the salaries of professional athletes, and are competing against thousands of players, they must be viewed as professionals competing in a sport. The entertainment aspect of poker must also be examined, except for the counterargument that all sports serve or can serve as a form of entertainment. Therefore, poker, which is not subjectively judged, falls into the field of sport.
Richard Reyes
Sports Editor
Poker is not a sport because its players are not athletes. If anything, they are rewarded for being lazy. Here's an idea: let's sit around for four days straight, drinking beer and playing cards for millions of dollars.
Poker is, without a doubt, entertaining and a fun activity for a night-in, but it is not a sport. An activity in which a group of friends can sit at their kitchen table, watching ESPN, drinking their favorite alcoholic beverage and playing for measly pots of monetary prizes is not a sport.
Then again, it must be physically strenuous to sit around for hours a day; that's why they have massage therapists at the ready to tend to sore backs. That's roughing it.
Poker players put hours of "practice" into their craft, playing in their casino of choice, but it involves no skill. It used to be about skill, but once thousands of people join, it becomes a lottery rather than a competition. Look at Greg Raymer, probably one of the luckiest poker players ever. Sure, he won the World Series of Poker, but his ability level is that of a basketball player who throws up nothing but full-court shots. When it goes in, it's miraculous, but it's not a skill shot. It takes a fraction of skill to aim the ball in the right direction and put enough force behind it, but there is still a lot of luck involved. If Raymer is an athlete, the stray neighborhood cat is a wild, ferocious lion.
There are plenty of examples of skilled poker players, Daniel Negreanu for example, but anybody with enough money and cajones to gamble with that money can become a poker superstar.
Raymer became more famous for his goofy glasses than his poker prowess. The world series went from being a competition for the most elite players in the world to a freak show where anybody with a loaded bank account can partake in the glory. The world series is becoming just another excuse, along with Halloween, for people to dress up in outrageous outfits.
"These events are all competitions that are entertaining, much like dog shows or the state fair," Round Up sports reporter Anthony Reyes said in a previous debate. This statement is true for poker.
The world series has all the makings of a great event: entertainment, suspense and relatable characters. Poker is fun to play with a group of friends on a lazy Friday night, but it is not a sport.
Last edited by xyberman on Thu May 01, 2008 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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esperz
Full House
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Not quite sure where that post was coming off. First part says it is then devloves into saying it isn't.
I agree with the latter, but strictly because there is no athletic ability involved. |
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xyberman
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 539
Location: One step over the line
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| esperz wrote: |
Not quite sure where that post was coming off. First part says it is then devloves into saying it isn't.
I agree with the latter, but strictly because there is no athletic ability involved. |
I fix the post to reflect it is two opposing views by brothers.
Thanks for pointing this out. |
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DrAndrian
Four of a Kind
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I prefer to view poker as a gaming event =) |
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jeffr8
Royal Flush
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 998
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| poker has got to be a sport...you gotta be in VERY good shape to make it ALLLLL the way from the kitchen to the computer as soon as you hear your timer start. Its more of a sprinters sport though |
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pghbandit
Royal Flush
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 568
Location: Ummm Pittsburgh?
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Poker: Sport or not a sport? |
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| xyberman wrote: |
Poker players put hours of "practice" into their craft, playing in their casino of choice, but it involves no skill. It used to be about skill, but once thousands of people join, it becomes a lottery rather than a competition. Look at Greg Raymer, probably one of the luckiest poker players ever. Sure, he won the World Series of Poker, but his ability level is that of a basketball player who throws up nothing but full-court shots. When it goes in, it's miraculous, but it's not a skill shot. It takes a fraction of skill to aim the ball in the right direction and put enough force behind it, but there is still a lot of luck involved. If Raymer is an athlete, the stray neighborhood cat is a wild, ferocious lion.
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If he had said Moneymaker here, it would have showed that he actually put some time, thought, and research into this article.
And when he said that basically anyone with enough money can be a professional poker player, I like that. It encourages idiots with a ton of money to play poker.
But to say that their is no skill involved in poker, displays the authors total lack of knowledge on the subject matter.
While I would say it is a stretch to call Poker a sport, comparing it to Bingo (my interpretation) is a little far off as well. |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3390
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Poker: Sport or not a sport? |
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| xyberman wrote: |
Look at Greg Raymer, probably one of the luckiest poker players ever. Sure, he won the World Series of Poker, but his ability level is that of a basketball player who throws up nothing but full-court shots. When it goes in, it's miraculous, but it's not a skill shot. It takes a fraction of skill to aim the ball in the right direction and put enough force behind it, but there is still a lot of luck involved. If Raymer is an athlete, the stray neighborhood cat is a wild, ferocious lion.
There are plenty of examples of skilled poker players, Daniel Negreanu for example, but anybody with enough money and cajones to gamble with that money can become a poker superstar. |
This just shows how little the guy knows about poker.
Greg Raymer has been a winning player for ~15 years I think, and 2004 WSOP was his 4th year there. Negreanu on the other hand has a negative net worth, and at the poker tables is a loser. (according to his piers). Sure he makes millions from endorsments, but try stacking up his tourney entries and cash game losses (including but not limited to HSP) and you'll find a figure in red.
Great work Mr Reyes, you're a disgrace to journalism. |
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FAST EDDIE 88
Full House
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 158
Location: Chicago area
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Fire eyes, you sound credible, but i find it hard to beleive negreanu has an over all negative net worth at the tables. How could anyone know what he makes in ring games when the cameras are not on?
Some of his peers might notice him take some heavy losses, but is anyone close enough to him to know what he is up or down at the tables really gona tell the whole world. I bet his momma doesnt even know, and she still makes his lunch 
On a side note, are you trying to imply that Raymer is a better player than Negreanu? I know they're bolth good but I'd have to put my money on Daniel, even if it is true that he's down at the tables. |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3390
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| FAST EDDIE 88 wrote: |
Fire eyes, you sound credible, but i find it hard to beleive negreanu has an over all negative net worth at the tables. How could anyone know what he makes in ring games when the cameras are not on?
Some of his peers might notice him take some heavy losses, but is anyone close enough to him to know what he is up or down at the tables really gona tell the whole world. I bet his momma doesnt even know, and she still makes his lunch
On a side note, are you trying to imply that Raymer is a better player than Negreanu? I know they're bolth good but I'd have to put my money on Daniel, even if it is true that he's down at the tables. |
It's a pretty well known fact that a 'significant number' of the pros you see on TV have a negative worth when they play poker. As most are sponsored into tourneys and often televised cash games too, they end up winners. (Sorry to disappoint anyone who thought that all the players on HSP were playing with their own money. Some do, some don't).
Negreanu is a textbook example of someone who has poor game selection, and is also poor (when compared to his peers) at playing against weaker players. I can't remember who it was that said he won't be a winning player until he can match his heroic calls with heroic laydowns.
And as for whether he's better than Raymer at poker, who knows. I don't know what stakes they both play live so it's hard to comment. But if you count game selection as a significant factor in ability then it's closer than you think. The argument that winning players > losing players when you dont take account of the stakes doesnt work, so its clearly a complicated thing to analyse. I personally wouldnt like to face either of them. |
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Starvingwriter
Full House
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Poker: Sport or not a sport? |
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| xyberman wrote: |
Anthony Reyes
Sports Reporter
Professional poker must be considered a sport becasue there are millions of players all over the world playing various forms. |
By this logic, baking, sleeping, browsing the internet, and writing are all "sports," and I am a pro athlete, baby.
Various items with my signature on them will be available on ebay shortly (I do accept payment to my full tilt account).
I'm expecting a call from Wheaties asking me to endorse their cereal.
Any day now.... |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7654
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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I can't really think of a single logical argument for calling poker a sport.
As for the whole Negreanu thing, speculations like that are pretty pointless in the context of this thread without reliable information imo. It also does seem like he managed to make a living playing poker for quite some time without any kind of sponsorship deals, which isn't the case with Raymer iirc. |
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DrAndrian
Four of a Kind
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Can we vote on a poll? |
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lisagates
Pair
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I second a poll. I vote its not a sport because there is no physical talent involved. Is chess considered a sport? |
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Captain Japple
Straight Flush
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 420
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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1) In the Chicago Tribune, every Sunday, there is an article about a hand played by a pro with comments from that pro. Its in the sports section.
2) Any thing can be considered a sport when any level of competition is involved. Even a Chile cook-off.
c) Training, ability, and sucess. The same criteria on any atheletes agenda.
4) If shooting a deer from up in a tree is considered a sport......
IMO, Poker = sport, by default of all things called sports. |
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Captain Japple
Straight Flush
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 420
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