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sixandfour
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 533
Location: Far from home
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Badlydrawnboy wrote: |
I was also wondering about what dcdoorknob said about that there is "no room for postflop play here". Really? I would say "there is more room for me than for my opponent". We have over 9000 in chips, if he is really this tight, we can easily push him out or even pull off a complete bluff (after all, a pot-sized bet on the flop would "only" be 1200 if we check preflop...)
Just my thoughts, but as I already said, I'm not pretending that I am correct here. |
This I would agree with. Normally, dcdoorknob is right, and as such it would be a simple shove or fold every hand. But this guy is making it easy on you. He hasn't played anything that isn't huge, that you've seen, and has folded to numerous shoves. It's a matter of time before he runs into a hand, and at this point a raise to 1500 or 1800 doesn't commit you to calling a shove. I think you should take advantage of this passiveness and avoid the inevitable race, where you'll likely be a dog given his tiny calling range. It may even work in your favor when he does call, since he's liable to fold out when he misses and you can take a bigger chunk out of his stack. |
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renegades8
Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3044
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Badlydrawnboy wrote: |
| Well, things like calling ranges (both my own range and that of my opponent). You have to be pretty sure about it, and I think nobody really knows what hands he's really limping in with. If he is really tight, he might as well limp in with KJo, how do you know? |
You don't have to take your own range into consideration, you know your exact hand (or so I should hope  ). Sure you can't figure out a specific range he has, but you can definitely figure out an approximate range that he's calling a shove with. All you have to figure out is what percentage of hands he's calling a shove with, and what your equity is against that range of hands.
| Badlydrawnboy wrote: |
I was also wondering about what dcdoorknob said about that there is "no room for postflop play here". Really? I would say "there is more room for me than for my opponent". We have over 9000 in chips, if he is really this tight, we can easily push him out or even pull off a complete bluff (after all, a pot-sized bet on the flop would "only" be 1200 if we check preflop...) |
Your effective stack is only what your opponent has, which is only like 4000. I know you can bully him around more since we have almost a 2-1 chiplead, but just note that your effective stack is only 4k.
| sixandfour wrote: |
| It's a matter of time before he runs into a hand, and at this point a raise to 1500 or 1800 doesn't commit you to calling a shove. I think you should take advantage of this passiveness and avoid the inevitable race, where you'll likely be a dog given his tiny calling range. It may even work in your favor when he does call, since he's liable to fold out when he misses and you can take a bigger chunk out of his stack. |
You probably have to call if you make it 1500 or 1800 and he comes over the top. Say you make it 1500 and he shoves, you're getting 3 to 1. You're almost NEVER going to be a 3 to 1 dog against someone's range, especially with these big of blinds in comparison to the stacks. Keep in mind shoving also gives you more fold equity, and doesn't put you in a gross spot where he can do something like a stop-and-go, or comes over the top and then you end up contemplating folding. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 802
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Hand #72
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds - 2 players
The Official Hand History
dcdoorknob (BTN/SB): t9519
Brian (BB): t3981
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is BTN/SB with A  3 
dcdoorknob raises to t9519 all in, Brian calls t3381 all in
Flop: (t7962) 6  9  A
Turn: (t7962) T
River: (t7962) K
Final Pot: t7962
dcdoorknob shows Ac 3s (a pair of Aces)
Brian shows Qs Ts (a pair of Tens)
dcdoorknob wins t7962
Yeah I actually stopped at the A3 because it was the last hand. 
It's been a good thread, I'm glad we did it, and thank you to all who have injected any thoughts along the way. I'll probably do one again sometime, although I doubt if it will be in the immediate future. I'm currently working my way through Colin Moshman's book (Sit 'n Go Strategy). Once I am done I may well revisit this thread and give my understanding on what Moshman would say in a few of these spots. |
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nilgiri
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 998
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| renegades8 wrote: |
| Sure you can't figure out a specific range he has, but you can definitely figure out an approximate range that he's calling a shove with. All you have to figure out is what percentage of hands he's calling a shove with, and what your equity is against that range of hands. |
I'm not sure you can really figure out an accurate percentage from a normal HU session at the end of a SnG. You really just don't have enough hands to work with. I think mostly you come up with a range based on your experiences with other people whom you have seen play similar SnG games. Obviously extreme cases are easy to see: if he has shoved 100% of the last 6 hands, then you can be pretty sure he's a maniac. If he has folded 100%, you can assume his range is narrower than most peoples'.
| Quote: |
| You probably have to call if you make it 1500 or 1800 and he comes over the top. Say you make it 1500 and he shoves, you're getting 3 to 1. You're almost NEVER going to be a 3 to 1 dog against someone's range, especially with these big of blinds in comparison to the stacks. |
This is important, and I think a lot of people don't realize this. If you raise and he comes over the top, it makes no sense to fold. Even if we weren't quite getting 3 to 1, the fact that we win the SnG if we win the hand makes up for not quite good enough odds. The same concept -- though in a different manner -- is applied when (a) you are BB on the bubble, (b) you have 2.5xBB, (c) there is a much shorter stack, and (d) someone else with 2.5xBB shoves. It makes no sense to call, because the fact that we lose the SnG if we lose the hand makes up for the great odds we are getting.
| Quote: |
| Keep in mind shoving also gives you more fold equity, and doesn't put you in a gross spot where he can do something like a stop-and-go, or comes over the top and then you end up contemplating folding. |
This is also important. When the blinds get high every pot matters. You can't afford to fold every time you miss a flop. But you also don't have enough chips to try to take down a missed flop with anything but blind luck. Say you raise to 1500, he calls, and now you miss the flop (which is what is usually going to happen). If he shoves, what do you do now? His stack is only the size of the pot! |
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sixandfour
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 533
Location: Far from home
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| In about 95% of situations I would completely agree with you guys. But given the tightness Brian has shown I see no reason to call a shove, even given the pot odds. This isn't a cash game, and you don't have to go with pot odds in unfavorable situations when it could cost you a tourney. You can fold to a shove and preserve your stack and the chip lead, or possibly outplay him on the flop here. If it doesn't work any given time, you can just go ahead and take the blinds later anyway since he's so tight. If he wasn't so easy to steal from, I'd never take this line, but given that the first time you get nailed on a shove you could end up a 2:1 chip dog, I feel there's merit in testing this line out. I agree with what you guys are saying, but there's no reason to take close to even-odds situations when you don't have to. This guy is giving you a way out of that. |
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renegades8
Forum Fish
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 3044
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| nilgiri wrote: |
| renegades8 wrote: |
| Sure you can't figure out a specific range he has, but you can definitely figure out an approximate range that he's calling a shove with. All you have to figure out is what percentage of hands he's calling a shove with, and what your equity is against that range of hands. |
I'm not sure you can really figure out an accurate percentage from a normal HU session at the end of a SnG. You really just don't have enough hands to work with. I think mostly you come up with a range based on your experiences with other people whom you have seen play similar SnG games. Obviously extreme cases are easy to see: if he has shoved 100% of the last 6 hands, then you can be pretty sure he's a maniac. If he has folded 100%, you can assume his range is narrower than most peoples'. |
It definitely is far from perfect, but I'm yet to read about a better way to figure out spots like this. I'd rather try to put him on some sort of range than to just say, "meh, I think I'm ahead decent amount of the time here".
Also keep in mind that you don't need ICM for HU, it's directly chip proportional. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 802
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: |
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So I'm pretty much done with Sit 'n Go Strategy (by Colin Moshman). At the moment I'm perusing some interesting pushing tables in the appendix which are meant to be rough guides for what to do with a short stack (broken down by how many BBs you have left and what position you are in), so I figured I'd see what these charts said about my pushes/non-pushes that we had in this thread...
1) Hand #37 - JJ and about 7 bbs UTG - push (obv)
2) Hand #40 - 54o from button and 7 bbs - fold (note - he does say to push w/ 54s)
3) Hand #42 - JTs, utg, 7bbs - push (98s, A6s, ATo is his cutoff here)
4) Hand # 44 - J5s, ~5 BBs from SB - push (pushing range goes down to 54s, J5o here)
5) Hand #45 - Q9o, button, ~6BBs - this seems to be right on the border. He has charts for 5bbs and 7bbs. At 5bbs, he says push down to Q8o, at 7, QTo. So I guess at 6 the cutoff is pretty much this exact hand.
6) Hand #47- 5bbs, button, 87o - The chart says to fold here, JTo/J8s is the cutoff. In this particular game where both blinds seem tighter than normal, I'm not sure its a bad push though, but probably marginal.
7) Hand #51 - 5bbs, 54s in cutoff - Says to push. This is the cutoff hand here.
8) Hand #52 - A9o UTG (5 handed) - push. He's folding any ace worse than A8o though, but pusing any suited ace.
Anyways, I just found the charts pretty interesting. I think compared to Moshman's charts, in general people are way too conservative with their small stacks and willingness to push with marginal hands.
Overall the book is definitely worth it if you play SNGs on any sort of regular basis. Definitely a good quality read. |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Interesting indeed. I forgot to thank you for the walkthrough by the way. I'm only a beginner but I learnt much from it, especially about the pushing indeed.
I guess I am so conservative because in the SnG's that I play, a normal raise from the SB when you have 7BB or 8BB e.g. almost does the same thing as a push with most opponents: they'll fold. I rarely get down to less than 5BB (but probably that's because I don't play Turbo's).
Even if I get a call from them (very rarely), most of them just check down the hand if they didn't catch anything, so I bluff them out of the pot on the turn or the river again and again and most of them never notice hehehe. Even a minimum bet on the flop to suggest "hey, I caught a piece of the flop here" drives them out - chickens!
If they are in the SB, they're generally too afraid to raise or shove, so they just call and I get to see another cheap flop, where I can bluff again. They're basically donating their chips to me.
But it's interesting to read this for when I decide to move up in stakes, which should be soon now. Also, I might try out some Turbo's now if I don't feel like grinding out the regular SnG's.
Anyway, thanks for the walkthrough dcdoorknob!  |
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