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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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No c-bet here for me. It's a loose table at the moment and especially this "Lois"-character knows that, I think (if you read the previous hands).
Check and fold here if anybody bets. You only have 7 outs to win the hand and they might be in here with anything. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 921
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: |
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I tend to agree, a c-bet really doesn't seem good here to me. Check fold it is.
Hand #13
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (MP2): t1422
Stewie (CO): t1345
Lois (BTN): t1958
Meg (SB): t1430
Chirs (BB): t1320
dcdoorknob (UTG): t1735
Brian (UTG+1): t1440
Quagmire (UTG+2): t1350
Cleveland (MP1): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is UTG with T  A 
dcdoorknob raises to t150, 5 folds, somiss calls t150, 1 fold, PCPusher calls t100
Chris checks, dcdoorknob checks, Lois bets t250, Chris folds, dcdoorknob folds
Final Pot: t475
Lois wins t475
Hand #14
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (MP1): t1422
Stewie (MP2): t1345
Lois (CO): t2283
Meg (BTN): t1405
Chris (SB): t1170
dcdoorknob (BB): t1585
Brian (UTG): t1440
Quagmire (UTG+1): t1350
Cleveland (UTG+2): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is BB with 9 3 
6 folds, Meg calls t60, Chris calls t30, dcdoorknob checks
Flop: (t180) 2 5 6 (3 players)
Chris checks, dcdoorknob checks, Meg bets t180, Chris folds, dcdoorknob folds
Final Pot: t180
Meg wins t180
Hand #15
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
davidemond (UTG+2): t1422
buddha_bob (MP1): t1345
somiss (MP2): t2283
Meg (CO): t1525
PCPusher (BTN): t1110
dcdoorknob (SB): t1525
Brian (BB): t1440
Quagmire (UTG): t1350
Areliano (UTG+1): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is SB with T T
4 folds, Lois calls t60, 2 folds, dcdoorknob raises to t240, 1 fold, Lois calls t180
Flop: (t540) A 4 7 (2 players)
dcdoorknob ???
Ok, I decided not to stop preflop here, but feel free to comment on that. Do we bet into Lois on this flop? |
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sixandfour
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 542
Location: Far from home
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Absolutely. You raised PF and about 20% of Lois' calling range beats you  (<laughing but sadly true). This is almost a value bet rather than a c-bet. |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Now, I would change styles as well and bet. She might be in here with a weak ace, but if you don't bet, you will never find out. I'm not so sure about how much I would bet though. Perhaps something like 1/2 pot.
I'm interested in what other people would do here. |
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ThePhoenix78
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 884
Location: On a big pile of money with many beautiful women
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Well, here are my thoughts on all of the hands in question thus far...
Hand 1 with AJo in MP
I personally prefer a raise here. AJo in MP is an alright hand. I raise to 3x. But given the uncertainty at this point and the fact that winning small pots now doesn't do much to help you, I am not opposed to a fold, or maybe a limp. I agree with the points about developing a tight image, but I try to mix in the odd raise with so-so hands, depending on position. I want to be noted as tight, but not an absolute rock. I have opened up my game slightly in the past few weeks and have done well at the $20 SnGs. I just found I wasn't getting paid off at all on my sets or AA-KK like hands because I would play 1 pot in 15 hands and it would be too obvious when I raised 3x in second position that I had a hand. So I personally like to mix things up JUST SLIGHTLY more than what a strict ICM adherent might advocate 
Hand 4 with A9s UTG
I don't mind a limp here. But contrary to what most others have said, I would CONSIDER a small raise, to like 75 or 90. Note that I say "consider"...not doing this all the time. But sometimes I think like this: "If I limp with a SC or a medium PP or a sooted A, what raise would I be willing to call if I do get raised?" I just hate limping with speculative hands when the stacks are still deep and getting raised like 5 or 6x and having to fold. By raising smallish yourself, you take control of the hand, you still keep the pot manageable if you get a call or two, and you might still set off a chain reaction of calls that build a nice pot if you hit hard. That said, I'd likely just call here and a fold is fine. But, I just once in a while like to make the kind of raise that I would consider calling had I limped, rather than allow somebody else to raise big enough to chase me off my speculative hand. I think somebody made a great point when they said that the earliest stages of a SnG are a great time to try to hit flops hard. If you get in a few pots and don't win, so you have 1,300 instead of 1,500, is that such a big deal? Especially when you create opportunities to stack somebody by hitting a sneaky flop. Again, just part of my new strategy of being generally tight, but mixing in well-timed aggression.
Hand 9 with AKo in MP2
I raise 4x here to 160. 180 is reasonable. On that flop, I don't like the 1/2 pot bet...well, it's ok, but I'd like to bet a little stronger to chase away the flush draw. And sometimes smaller bets closer to 1/2 the pot seems suspicious to me. A bet of like 260 here would always seem more like a c-bet to me. A bet of like 60% of the pot is what I typically c-bet when I miss, so I like to bet that when I hit too. I don't think this is a horrible spot to slow play. You have to sometimes c-bet, but sometimes check when you miss, so to balance, you need to sometimes bet when you hit and sometimes check when you hit. But I predominantly c-bet and bet out the hands I hit. Just saying it's good to mix in the odd counterintuitive play. Just one opponent, might have a flush draw, but so many other hands he could have and still unlikely to make it on the next card, so I might wanna give him a chance to bluff the turn. Whoever talked about letting him "draw" to a set made me laugh. So if it was a completely spread out rainbow board, you'd still want to bet more than half the pot to deny his set "draw?" Anyways, I'm still not usually slow playing this, I am most often betting out, but something around 240-300, usually about 260. Hopefully he'll call with his 88 or whatever he has or make a bad call with a flush draw.
Hand 13 with ATo UTG
Clear fold in my opinion. You almost don't want to hit an A or T if you raise here and get called. So just avoid pitfalls and fold. On the flop, I agree with the others and you about check-folding. And don't want to bet out and get raised off your (admittedly weak) draw. Hopefully you get a free card and hit the miracle. A K gives you the nuts and an A could be an out, although you'll have to be very careful if an A peels off. Anyways, check, call a TINY bet (like maybe 1/5 of the pot or less) or fold to a bigger bet.
Hand 15 with TT in SB
I lead out here, to represent the A and to see where Lois might be. She's been loose, so can't just be scared of the A. The thing is with good, but vulnerable PP like JJ and TT, an overcard is going to come at least half the time...if you get frightened every time that happens, you're not going to get much value from these hands. It's a pretty safe board, so you shouldn't need to be too big to show you mean business. My first instinct was to bet a little more than 200. But that might seem weak to a loose moron like Lois, and you really want to see where you're at and have more confidence about whether she has that A, so I might bet like 300 instead. And that's in my usual 60% of pot betting range, so hard for my opponents to read me. If she calls, I guess I probably try to check it down. But hard to imagine she has an A given that she just limped preflop. If she does, it's probably weak, but she seems like the type of player that would never fold top pair, no matter how weak the kicker, so I'd probably just hope to check it down if my flop bet is called. |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| ThePhoenix78 wrote: |
Well, here are my thoughts on all of the hands in question thus far...
Hand 9 with AKo in MP2
I raise 4x here to 160. 180 is reasonable. On that flop, I don't like the 1/2 pot bet...well, it's ok, but I'd like to bet a little stronger to chase away the flush draw. And sometimes smaller bets closer to 1/2 the pot seems suspicious to me. A bet of like 260 here would always seem more like a c-bet to me. A bet of like 60% of the pot is what I typically c-bet when I miss, so I like to bet that when I hit too. I don't think this is a horrible spot to slow play. You have to sometimes c-bet, but sometimes check when you miss, so to balance, you need to sometimes bet when you hit and sometimes check when you hit. But I predominantly c-bet and bet out the hands I hit. Just saying it's good to mix in the odd counterintuitive play. Just one opponent, might have a flush draw, but so many other hands he could have and still unlikely to make it on the next card, so I might wanna give him a chance to bluff the turn. Whoever talked about letting him "draw" to a set made me laugh. So if it was a completely spread out rainbow board, you'd still want to bet more than half the pot to deny his set "draw?" Anyways, I'm still not usually slow playing this, I am most often betting out, but something around 240-300, usually about 260. Hopefully he'll call with his 88 or whatever he has or make a bad call with a flush draw.
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That was me who made you laugh, but I added something to my argument later.
Anyway, I do agree with you! You also want to bet big enough to chase other people out here.
After all, the pot is 420 here and it's early in the tournament. I don't see any need to invite somebody to suck out on you.
Watch the last hand as well: we're betting with TT on an A-high board. Now reverse the situation and suppose you have the A here. That's why I bet high enough to chase out pairs like TT and to avoid worst case scenarios. I don't see anything wrong with that, either, and a bet of 2/3 of the pot isn't outrageous either. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1365
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the AT hand c/f.
TT hand: PF was fine. I think about a 1/2 - 2/3 pot bet OTF is good. Fold to a raise, check the turn if you get a call. With KK or QQ I would often check/call here and let Lois bluff or try to get some "value" from his mid pair. But with TT there are too many scare overcards that might come on the turn or river to play this passively. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 921
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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I probably bet a little too much here. The optimum bet is probably less than 360 with this hand, but I do try and vary bet sizes at least a little, and I will often make a slightly larger bet if I do happen to have the big ace in this situation (for increased value), and that is what I was trying to represent. Still, 300 accomplishes the exact same thing with less risk when Lois does have a better hand.
Hand #15
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (UTG+2): t1422
Stewie (MP1): t1345
Lois (MP2): t2283
Meg (CO): t1525
Chris (BTN): t1110
dcdoorknob (SB): t1525
Brian (BB): t1440
Quagmire (UTG): t1350
Cleveland (UTG+1): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is SB with T T
4 folds, Lois calls t60, 2 folds, dcdoorknob raises to t240, 1 fold, Lois calls t180
Flop: (t540) A 4 7 (2 players)
dcdoorknob bets t360, Lois folds
Final Pot: t540
dcdoorknob wins t540
Hand #16
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (UTG+1): t1422
Stewie (UTG+2): t1345
Lois (MP1): t2043
Meg (MP2): t1525
Chris (CO): t1110
dcdoorknob (BTN): t1825
Brian (SB): t1380
Quagmire (BB): t1350
Cleveland (UTG): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is BTN with 8  4
2 folds, Stewie calls t60, 5 folds, Quagmire checks
Flop: (t150) 7 9 J (2 players)
Quagmire checks, Stewie bets t150, Quagmire folds
Final Pot: t150
Stewie wins t150
Hand #17
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t40/t80 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (UTG): t1422
Stewie (UTG+1): t1435
Lois (UTG+2): t2043
Meg (MP1): t1525
Chris (MP2): t1110
dcdoorknob (CO): t1825
Brian (BTN): t1350
Quagmire (SB): t1290
Cleveland (BB): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is CO with 8 A
5 folds, dcdoorknob ???
Well I've been getting enough legitimate hands that I probably don't have a very tight image, but that's not the end of the world. What do we do with A8o, unopened pot, in the cutoff at this stage? |
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ThePhoenix78
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 884
Location: On a big pile of money with many beautiful women
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| If memory serves me correctly, the button, SB, and BB are 3 of the tighter players at the table. In most cases, I think A8 is good enough for a raise in the CO in an unopened pot. So with tighter players to act, I'd pop 'er to 200-240. I prefer a bit smaller, like 200. Often, I like 225 in this spot too |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePhoenix78 wrote: |
| If memory serves me correctly, the button, SB, and BB are 3 of the tighter players at the table. In most cases, I think A8 is good enough for a raise in the CO in an unopened pot. So with tighter players to act, I'd pop 'er to 200-240. I prefer a bit smaller, like 200. Often, I like 225 in this spot too |
Agreed, but only because it's a turbo. In a 'normal' SnG I would still let this hand go, but this might be personal preference, I don't know.
(I'm always thinking about what the blinds are worth here compared to what I have to invest...) |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1365
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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TT: 360 was pretty much the max I'd ever want to bet there, so not really that bad. Against Lois, though, who seems like the type to (a) fold if he has nothing, (b) call if he has mid pair, or (c) raise if he has an ace, I think betting 1/2 pot is enough.
A8: I'd raise to 240. I personally think it's a bit early to raise less than 3x for a steal. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 921
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, A8o is usually a raise here for me, and the fact that the loosest players have all folded already makes it an easier decision.
Hand #17
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t40/t80 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (UTG): t1422
Stewie (UTG+1): t1435
Lois (UTG+2): t2043
Meg (MP1): t1525
Chris (MP2): t1110
dcdoorknob (CO): t1825
Brian (BTN): t1350
Quagmire (SB): t1290
Cleveland (BB): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is CO with 8 A
5 folds, dcdoorknob raises to t240, 3 folds
Final Pot: t200
dcdoorknob wins t200
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t40/t80 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (BB): t1422
Stewie (UTG): t1435
Lois (UTG+1): t2043
Meg (UTG+2): t1525
Chris (MP1): t1110
dcdoorknob (MP2): t1945
Brian (CO): t1350
Quagmire (BTN): t1250
Cleveland (SB): t1420
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is MP2 with Q 9
7 folds, Cleveland raises to t480, 1 fold
Final Pot: t160
Cleveland wins t160
Hand #19
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t40/t80 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (SB): t1342
Stewie (BB): t1435
Lois (UTG): t2043
Meg (UTG+1): t1525
Chris (UTG+2): t1110
dcdoorknob (MP1): t1945
Brian (MP2): t1350
Quagmire (CO): t1250
Cleveland (BTN): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is MP1 with 7 3
6 folds, Cleveland raises to t320, 2 folds
Final Pot: t200
Cleveland wins t200
Hand #20
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t40/t80 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (BTN): t1302
Stewie (SB): t1355
Lois (BB): t2043
Meg (UTG): t1525
Chris (UTG+1): t1110
dcdoorknob (UTG+2): t1945
Brian (MP1): t1350
Quagmire (MP2): t1250
Cleveland (CO): t1620
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is UTG+2 with 9 9
2 folds, dcdoorknob ??? |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I would make a standard raise here (240). This Cleveland guy is especially someone to watch out for. He will fold this hand if he doesn't have anything, but if he calls, be careful.
(I really like to follow this thread by the way, because I already notice the difference in play when you play different levels... I play 1 dollar SnGs...) |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1365
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 99: I'd raise this to 240 as well. |
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ThePhoenix78
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 884
Location: On a big pile of money with many beautiful women
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I prefer a raise to 239, but I guess 240 is ok |
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