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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 928
Location: Mississippi
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 Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Went with another pot button raise here. The limper might well call (others might too), but a raise + c-bet if I miss will work quite often here, and its also much easier to get someone to stack off post-flop when I hit when they are dominated if I put in a nice raise preflop.
Hand #9
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (BB): t1380
Stewie (UTG): t1410
Lois (UTG+1): t1695
Meg (UTG+2): t1560
Chris (MP1): t1500
dcdoorknob (MP2): t1495
Brian (CO): t1440
Quagmire (BTN): t1500
Cleveland (SB): t1520
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is MP2 with K A
3 folds, Chris calls t40, dcdoorknob raises to t180, 4 folds, Chris calls t140
Flop: (t420) K  4 8  (2 players)
Chris checks, dcdoorknob ??? |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dcdoorknob wrote: |
I folded it. I understand the lure of limping at a passive table with a drawing type hand against presumably weak competition, but I still prefer my position to be better than this to do it.
Another factor to consider which I think is especially applicable to turbos is image. Establishing a tight image early can be of significant help in the not too distant future when you are almost inevitably going to be pushing in some big bets preflop with marginal hands. Limping UTG doesn't do a thing for getting that image, and its another reason I don't prefer it here. |
+1 on both points. I go with whatever image I end up having (e.g. if I get a lot of good hands early on and I'm raising like a maniac, I have to recognize that I have a loose image), but I default to a tight image, because it is worth WAY more as the blinds get high.
As for potting the AJ hand, I hate potting it. I don't like to get an image of making big raises when I come in, certainly not the image of the guy who always hits the pot button, because it means I can't steal blinds as easily with minraises or 2.5x raises later on. On the other hand, it does mean you can get more value from big hands early on. I don't think the trade off is worth it, though, because IMHO the playing the high-blind end game well is by far the most important factor in profitability.
K7s hand: I hate a raise here. Good fold IMHO.
AK hand: I raise to 160. Again, I don't like potting in SnGs, but that's just me. As played, I usually bet 210. If he calls, I watch for another heart. |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 928
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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I don't use the pot button but for the first few levels (for convenience) when we're talking about a difference of 15-30 chips between the 3xBB raise and the pot raise, and even then I still do the 3 or 4x BB raise more often, like whenever I don't have 2+ other tables awaiting action. Do you really react that much differently to pot raises? I didn't think there was much practical difference this early on.
I'm curious to hear more opinions on the preferred bet size on this flop into a 420 pot. If I'm remembering my Harrington right I think he would advocate something closer to a pot sized bet for maximum value, but with his usual randomization %s. Nilgiri is advocating a 1/2 pot bet. Well either way I'll come back and update this tomorrow. |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: |
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I would bet something around 300 now on your AK hand. 2/3 of the pot and it says you mean real business here.
Basically you should want to chase all the lower pocket pairs out here, and avoid the scenario where they catch a set on the turn or the river. So make the bet big enough to scare them out, is my view. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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The problem with potting PF is that as soon as you don't pot it, it raises flags. Well, it does for me. I guess the random $6 SnG player may not notice.
As for the flop bet, I would bet higher if I am first to act. Right now he's checked the flop to us. I'm betting smaller to get calls more often from flush draws, lower pairs, and other other hands that think we are just trying to take the flop. |
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cubbies760
Next Year Is Here
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 6593
Location: Suburban Chicago
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm following these hands, and have nothing new to add. It seems pretty standard for folding the K7s. Raising to around 150 with the AK, and c-betting 2/3 pot seems like the way to go.
Look out for the Flush Draw.....I'm guessing it hits the turn for the next step in our journey.  |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| nilgiri wrote: |
| As for the flop bet, I would bet higher if I am first to act. Right now he's checked the flop to us. I'm betting smaller to get calls more often from flush draws, lower pairs, and other other hands that think we are just trying to take the flop. |
Of course, but here either someone with a flush draw OR someone with a lower pocket pair might call if you're not agressive enough...
I guess this also depends on the level you play at...
So I would make a stronger bet... |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 928
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, moving on. I bet 280. I think someone who will chase for 210 will also mostly chase for 280, plus the sizing is a little ambiguous as it could still be a c-bet.
Hand #9
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (BB): t1380
Stewie (UTG): t1410
Lois (UTG+1): t1695
Meg (UTG+2): t1560
Chris (MP1): t1500
dcdoorknob (MP2): t1495
Brian (CO): t1440
Quagmire (BTN): t1500
Cleveland (SB): t1520
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is MP2 with K A
3 folds, Chris calls t40, dcdoorknob raises to t180, 4 folds, Chris calls t140
Flop: (t420) K 4 8 (2 players)
Chris checks, Hand #9
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (BB): t1380
Stewie (UTG): t1410
Lois (UTG+1): t1695
Meg (UTG+2): t1560
Chris (MP1): t1500
dcdoorknob (MP2): t1495
Brian (CO): t1440
Quagmire (BTN): t1500
Cleveland (SB): t1520
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is MP2 with K A
3 folds, Chris calls t40, dcdoorknob raises to t180, 4 folds, Chris calls t140
Flop: (t420) K 4 8 (2 players)
Chris checks, dcdoorknob bets t280, Chris folds
Final Pot: t420
dcdoorknob wins t420
Hand #10
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (SB): t1340
Stewie (BB): t1410
Lois (UTG): t1695
Meg (UTG+1): t1560
Chris (UTG+2): t1320
dcdoorknob (MP1): t1735
Brian (MP2): t1440
Quagmire (CO): t1500
Cleveland (BTN): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is MP1 with 5 6
Lois raises to t80, Meg calls t80, 5 folds, Peter calls t60, 1 fold
Flop: (t280) A 5 7 (3 players)
Peter checks, Lois bets t200, Meg folds, Peter folds
Final Pot: t280
Lois wins t280
Hand #11
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (BTN): t1260
Stewie (SB): t1370
Lois (BB): t1895
Meg (UTG): t1480
Chris (UTG+1): t1320
dcdoorknob (UTG+2): t1735
Brian (MP1): t1440
Quagmire (MP2): t1500
Cleveland (CO): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is UTG+2 with J 3
4 folds, Quagmire raises to t150, 1 fold, Peter calls t150, 1 fold, Lois calls t100
Flop: (t475) 4 9 9 (3 players)
somiss checks, Quagmire checks, davidemond checks
Turn: (t475) 6 (3 players)
Lois bets t200, Quagmire folds, Peter raises to t400, somiss calls t200
River: (t1275) Q (2 players)
Lois bets t1345 all in, Peter calls t710 all in
Final Pot: t2695
Peter shows 9s 7s (three of a kind, Nines)
Lois shows 9c 7h (three of a kind, Nines)
Lois wins t1348
Peter wins t1347
Hand #12
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (CO): t1347
Stewie (BTN): t1345
Lois (SB): t1983
Meg (BB): t1480
Chris (UTG): t1320
dcdoorknob (UTG+1): t1735
Brian (UTG+2): t1440
Quagmire (MP1): t1350
Clevelnd (MP2): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is UTG+1 with 5 Q
5 folds, Peter raises to t175, 3 folds
Final Pot: t125
Peter wins t125
Hand #13
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (MP2): t1422
Stewie (CO): t1345
Lois (BTN): t1958
Meg (SB): t1430
Chris (BB): t1320
dcdoorknob (UTG): t1735
Brian (UTG+1): t1440
Quagmire (UTG+2): t1350
Cleveland (MP1): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is UTG with T A
dcdoorknob ???
Ok, check out hand #11, Peter and Lois both giving out some information there, and I can't say I'm sad to be at the same table. Battle of the 97's in a raise pot.  Peter especially is in every other pot.
Now to ATo UGT, what's the move? |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I have the impression that the table has become looser, so you have to tighten up. I would fold. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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AK hand: I don't think there is anything wrong with a 280 bet either. Just different playing styles.
AT UTG: I fold this. If the blinds were smaller or larger, I might occasionally raise here (though usually not). But at the 25/50 spot, with a full table, people are still usually pretty loose, but the blinds are high enough that the resulting pot after a call or two is bigger than we really want, compared to our stack, holding a tough hand like AT UTG. |
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nightowl89
Pair
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Badlydrawnboy wrote: |
| I have the impression that the table has become looser, so you have to tighten up. I would fold. |
I agree with this - at first the table was tight, but a few players are becoming loose now, i would let A10 go and wait for a better position, the only flop your gonna like is 10-rag-rag, i would be tempted to play it suited or in late position |
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BlabbyElm
High Card
Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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I am surprised to hear how important a tight table is - the way I've been playing $6 SnG's is to bet the same (3x BB) with marginal hands (AT, A9, etc.) as i would a premium hand to keep people guessing... although I'm new at this and tend to lose my chip lead in later rounds.
Can anyone elaborate on how to take advantage of a cultivated tight table image? When would you do it? |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BlabbyElm wrote: |
| I am surprised to hear how important a tight table is - the way I've been playing $6 SnG's is to bet the same (3x BB) with marginal hands (AT, A9, etc.) as i would a premium hand to keep people guessing... although I'm new at this and tend to lose my chip lead in later rounds. |
Position is extremely important. Raising AT or A9 UTG is going to be a bad idea, whereas raising from the button after everyone has folded to you is going to be a good idea.
The tightness/looseness of the table actually matter very little to our PF hand selection IMHO. There is rarely any real need or good reason to play marginal hands OOP under any normal circumstances this early in a SnG.
| Quote: |
| Can anyone elaborate on how to take advantage of a cultivated tight table image? When would you do it? |
Having a tight image is extremely useful when the blinds get high. When the blinds are high, you almost never want a call when you raise/shove, particularly on the bubble. The only exceptions really are when you are far ahead and need the chips. Otherwise you are just taking chances that you don't want to take. You don't want your AT to be called by KQ on the bubble, because you really aren't that far ahead. With a tight image, people will be more likely to fold that KQ. If people think you raise and shove with QJ and KT type hands, you'll be more likely to get a call.
A tight image means people are more likely to fold when you show aggression when the blinds are high. This doesn't mean you suddenly start shoving every hand -- you'll quickly lose your tight image. But if you continue to be fairly tight, raising and shoving only hands that are reasonably decent, then you will get far fewer calls.
So IMHO you don't find individual spots to use your tight image so much as you reap the benefits over several hands. |
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Badlydrawnboy
Flush
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BlabbyElm wrote: |
I am surprised to hear how important a tight table is - the way I've been playing $6 SnG's is to bet the same (3x BB) with marginal hands (AT, A9, etc.) as i would a premium hand to keep people guessing... although I'm new at this and tend to lose my chip lead in later rounds.
Can anyone elaborate on how to take advantage of a cultivated tight table image? When would you do it? |
I also raise 3xBB on almost every hand, as you say, to keep people guessing. (In some cases I will limp or call to deceive others.)
But I'm not going to play ATo in first position on a full table where people have just shown they will play 97 suited for a raise. There are just too many ways to go broke, in my opinion.
If you raise this hand here, you can expect one or two calls, and even if the flop comes with an A you will never know whether you're ahead or behind. Perhaps the guy behind you called you with A5 and caught 2 pair or a straight draw...
It's not about creating a tight image for me, it's more about the style that other people are playing at the moment. I start playing more loosely when it's down to 6 players or so and the blinds are high enough to make it worth to try to steal them. (And loose players become more afraid to call your raises...) |
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dcdoorknob
Royal Flush
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 928
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Alright guys, I agree completely, this is a fold. That's what I would normally do here. However, I ended up raising. Even at the time I remember thinking, 'wait, no, yuck.' right after I raised it. I just got a little ahead of myself here.
Hand #13
Full Tilt Poker $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand History
Peter (MP2): t1422
Stewie (CO): t1345
Lois (BTN): t1958
Meg (SB): t1430
Chris (BB): t1320
dcdoorknob (UTG): t1735
Brian (UTG+1): t1440
Quagmire (UTG+2): t1350
Cleveland (MP1): t1500
Pre Flop: dcdoorknob is UTG with T A
dcdoorknob raises to t150, 5 folds, Lois calls t150, 1 fold, Chris calls t100
Flop: (t475) J Q 2 (3 players)
Chris checks, dcdoorknob ???
Well, now that we're in the hand, do we c-bet? |
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