Online Poker Forum - Heads-Up Play Frustrating me as of late. Help me...

xthegeniusx · High Card Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 7

OK, this is my first post here and I am posting out of necessity because I just can't figure this out on my own.

Some questions about HU play.

1: When I play heads up I love to encounter someone who takes their hands too far - or someone who finds a reason to think I'm bluffing every hand. But this kind of player has been causing problems for me recently. What can you do if you don't get hands against this guy? IS there anything to do?

When I bluff at a paired board on the flop, he'll call. If I make another bet on the turn he will call A LOT of the time. And you better believe he is calling if he has ANY piece at all. Any pair, any draw, even if very weak. Now this guy isn't very smart but he also is playing a game that I can't see a way to beat. I haven't shown him one good hand cause I haven't had one so naturally he keeps calling and calling cause he's having good results - hitting pairs on the river, calling all the way with low pair, etc. Now, he would probably play this way no matter what. That's why I"m DYING to get hands against this guy cause I know all his betting patterns and I can just do the same thing I've been doing but this time with a hand. My question is: what if you don't get hands. Is there any way to beat this guy, or any way to prolong the game while you wait for a hand?

2: Should I be playing heads up tourneys in the first place??? I have positive ROI and profit for every type of game I play, (all NL HE) but is Heads up worth the stress and frustration (I find it more frustrating than other games) for the stats I have � compared to 9 person, 45 person, etc. (I'll post some of my Sharkscope stats below).

Any help with these matters would be greatly appreciated! Looking hopefully for some real techniques from great players. But any ideas are good and will keep me thinking about how to solve this problem.

Stats for all types of sngs for the past 6 months:

Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit
xTheGENIUSx 1,085 $10 $43 21% $10,393 -

Now Heads Up in past 6 months (including the 4 man heads up tourneys):

Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit
xTheGENIUSx 843 $6 $43 12% $4,645

Now 9 person sitngos in last 6 months. (turbo and normal):

Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit
xTheGENIUSx 128 $15 $46 23% $1,897

Finally 45-90 person SitnGos in last six months (doesn't include profit from KO's in 90 person but what can you do):

Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit
xTheGENIUSx 106 $40 $45 100% $4,238

Now, if anyone's actually read all this crap... let me know what you think. And which game do you think I should be focusing on the most considering the stats.

THANKS!

sixandfour · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:33 am Post subject:

These are the guys I have the most trouble with HU too, the ones who just sit back and let you put every chip in the pot. First thing is to recognize it. Then, you just slow down, and wait him out. Generally, if your aggression just stops abruptly, they will start some of their own. Then you hit them right back with their own trappy bs. Even if they still play soft, you keep the pots down until you hit big, then take advantage of Villain's looseness to maximize profit. It takes more time and drags the game out, but eventually you'll get him by keeping your losses small and getting paid well (in comparison) for the wins. I don't normally advocate slowing down HU, and it's something to avoid in general, but in these instances it's the only safe way to play ultraloose passives HU.

nilgiri · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:46 am Post subject:

Yeah, these guys take a long time to beat. If you are playing $10 games, then you must be playing the non-turbos. You have even more time to wait for your hands, so use that time. You have a lot more time than you think you do.

What I like to do is just limp in every SB, and check every BB (unless you have an extremely good hand). Basically, you are exercising pot control from the very beginning. This way, the pots get big when you make them big, and you don't need to stay in a pot if he gets aggressive. Limping in is fine, because he's never going to raise you. But when you hit two pair or better, you will usually get called down.

Also, just don't c-bet. The guy will call you if you have a hand or not, so don't bet if you don't have a hand. You still have a good chance of winning the pot anyway with your AK high, so just check the hand down.

xthegeniusx · High Card Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 7

Really good thoughts from both of you - sixandfour and nilgirl.

Would like to comment on some of them:

Exactly sixandfour, the first thing to do IS to recognize this loose passive style. I see way too many people play their game, and make the mistake of bluffing big in the first 10 hands! (I've done it too) Big mistake. My general strategy is to get a feel in the first hands to pin down what kind of player he/she is.

Both of you said I should wait this player out and use the time TO make a hand and extract chips. Which is totally right, and sometimes I just get impatient and DO c-bet and do try to take down a pot with a small bluff if I think the player's got nothing. And here's one of the reasons why: I play the TURBO HUs. So I do NOT have very much time, and eventually I have to do SOMETHING it seems (maybe one thing that would work here is actually playing faster - meaning just literally checking quickly when I have nothing and betting quickly when I have something - I find that betting faster against these players works well because it doesn't give their little brains enough time to consider anything). But what if hands never come? Which leads me to my next question).

Should I not be playing the turbo HUs? Should I only play the normal HUs so that when I encounter this type of player and can't get a hand I have a longer time to make one and therefore make back all the chips I've lost by never getting hands?

Oh, one more question: Should I consider min-raising or raising at all preflop with a value bet? Meaning, any ace, any pair, even k high, when in the long run I'll win by showdown against random hands? The problem with this is I'm never seeming to win by showdown. But should I keep doing it anyway because it's "correct"? Or is it not correct? I guess this also depends on whether this player ever folds preflop to a raise, which would give me more reason to make this play. But in general, I guess I'm talking about the player who calls everything so...

OK, so there are a few more thoughts and questions for you. Thank you for the excellent advice. Gonna change some of your ideas into rules when I encounter one of these players. And I will force myself to stick to them.

Thanks again. Let me know if you have any further suggestions. And please, new people chime in![/quote]

nilgiri · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: In response:

sixandfour · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

The turbo games are going to cut down on the time you have to make hands, for sure... any time the blinds are faster the weaker players have a better shot at winning. It is up to you to decide whether you have the time and patience to play a slower game.

If you do play the turbos, and you encounter these players, there are ways to combat the bleeding down effect. I would advise against value betting if you find yourself shortstacked, but on the other hand, if you have a good chip lead, a value raise pf is fine on better than average hands IF the villain is generally checking down. If they tend to minbet or agressively play a lot postflop, limping's the way to go.

The other thing that you can do is shove a lot more hands (as opposed to open raising) when you get down to around 10 blinds. Granted, you'll be racing a lot more if you get called, but your villain's calling range is so wide that you'll get in in very good shape a lot of times. There's no point in value betting a fish for a big chunk of your stack, then having to make a decision if you miss or allow villain all 5 cards free. This will force villain to lay down some of their crap or pay the price, and will often buy you time until you get the hands you need to get him/her. Once in a while it will stack you when they wake up with a big hand, but when players like that get those hands, they generally do anyway, as you're never able to put them on it. Donkeys and fish get hands too.

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