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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
| trekk wrote: |
How is proving something impossible? Where do you come up with that. I can sure as hell prove if FTP is legit or a scam, but the means in which I would have to do that would be illegal.
You are a moron, you talk as if nothing should be questioned unless there is 100% proof already. And if thats the way all life on this planet thought, we would be going backwards in technology and every other aspect in life. For christ sake, you compare FTP to the Universe. My god, my tiny little brain thinks they are the same size. seriously.. you try to defend FTP with the most irrelevant things.
There is no official "audit" of FTP. If you can show me, please do.
other than that, im not quite sure you understand what a third party represents. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof
You ask that the site be proven to be not rigged. You claim that since nobody has posted anything that proves the site isn't rigged, then it must be rigged. This is your logical fallacy. This is why I'm saying you can't prove a negative.
There's worlds of evidence that suggest the sites aren't rigged. There are thousands of users here, at 2+2, Pocket5s, and other forums who have accumulated millions of hands collectively. IF the odds weren't as expected, you'd have heard about it.
The fact that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever provided a significant sample that shows a statistical anomaly significant enough to claim things are rigged leads me to the conclusion that things aren't rigged.
Also note that this isn't a single entity that has to be trusted, but instead is a distributed group of individuals. This means that it is highly unlikely that the sites are rigged in their favor only, or that they were paid off to falsify data to hide the rigging.
Bottom line is, this argument gets played out over and over, and never do the "rigged" theorists put up anything other than "I think", "I feel", "It seems", or other empty conjecture. |
actually.. I think you should read my posts. Where do I say that it is rigged? Never once have I said it is rigged, my argument has been totally different, and thats you once again jumping to things without knowing what your talking about.
You talk about examples and proof, and you want to show me wikipedia? lol... thats the type of joke im talking about. Shall I go on wikipedia and write an article claiming there is proof? cmon guy think, wikipedia is not a credible source. ever. and everyone should know this already.
And when you get down to your bottom line, we go back to saying FTP does not give enough proof (which proof is never impossible as you say it is), so why would someone be able to write anything other than what they beleive. There is nothing showing that it is nor is not legit.
Last edited by trekk on Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mgodd wrote: |
| HighKey wrote: |
| Not to be a downer, but weren't those the same entities that verified AbsolutePoker and UltimateBet? |
I believe so, but cheating and non-random shuffling are two completely different issues. I don't see how any 3rd party could prevent super user accounts from being used, and neither of those sites have proven to be rigged in any other aspect. |
I thought someone got into clientside to cheat on those websites. Which in that case would be hacking instead of the website cheating. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4301
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| trekk wrote: |
| I hear you say evidence... can you answer me this? Has FTP ever released any of the programming code to a respectable source so they can prove that it is NOT infact rigged? When in question, the innocent normally prove their innocence. being a programmer myself, I know only how easy it would be. |
Yes, they release the code to Gaming Associates as part of the KGC certification process. GA says the code is not rigged. Is that enough proof for you? |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4301
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| trekk wrote: |
| mgodd wrote: |
| HighKey wrote: |
| Not to be a downer, but weren't those the same entities that verified AbsolutePoker and UltimateBet? |
I believe so, but cheating and non-random shuffling are two completely different issues. I don't see how any 3rd party could prevent super user accounts from being used, and neither of those sites have proven to be rigged in any other aspect. |
I thought someone got into clientside to cheat on those websites. Which in that case would be hacking instead of the website cheating. |
No, an employee used a superuser account to see all cards in play. This wasn't a client-side hack, but instead an inside cheat. |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
| trekk wrote: |
| mgodd wrote: |
| HighKey wrote: |
| Not to be a downer, but weren't those the same entities that verified AbsolutePoker and UltimateBet? |
I believe so, but cheating and non-random shuffling are two completely different issues. I don't see how any 3rd party could prevent super user accounts from being used, and neither of those sites have proven to be rigged in any other aspect. |
I thought someone got into clientside to cheat on those websites. Which in that case would be hacking instead of the website cheating. |
No, an employee used a superuser account to see all cards in play. This wasn't a client-side hack, but instead an inside cheat. |
This was not proven, you should not be so sure of your words. And if it was an inside job, it was not directly an employee account as you say. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4301
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| trekk wrote: |
| IABoomer wrote: |
| trekk wrote: |
| mgodd wrote: |
| HighKey wrote: |
| Not to be a downer, but weren't those the same entities that verified AbsolutePoker and UltimateBet? |
I believe so, but cheating and non-random shuffling are two completely different issues. I don't see how any 3rd party could prevent super user accounts from being used, and neither of those sites have proven to be rigged in any other aspect. |
I thought someone got into clientside to cheat on those websites. Which in that case would be hacking instead of the website cheating. |
No, an employee used a superuser account to see all cards in play. This wasn't a client-side hack, but instead an inside cheat. |
This was not proven, you should not be so sure of your words. And if it was an inside job, it was not directly an employee account as you say. |
http://www.poker-king.com/poker-king-articles.php?article=287
| Quote: |
October 21, 2007
Dear AP Player:
I am the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake and the owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, which holds a 100% interest in Absolute Poker.
As many of our players are aware, there has been a security breach in our system that allowed unlawful access to player information that resulted in unfair play. I am writing to you today to let you know what we know so far in order to set the record straight, and to assure you of AP’s commitment to player security. I am sure that this letter will not address all of the questions and concerns you may have, nor will it extinguish the heated discussion surrounding this issue. At this point, our intention is to let you know all we can disclose and to assure you of our continued efforts to keep you informed as best we can as the investigations continue.
We deeply regret this situation has occurred. A breach in security in online poker is serious and of great concern to players and the industry worldwide, and this particular situation has been the subject of debate within the poker player community and in the media, giving rise to the creation of several websites and hundreds and hundreds of comments, opinions, and theories of what occurred – some of which are accurate, and some that are not.
Like you, I have not been happy that during the initial stage of our investigation, AP has not been more forthcoming in providing a timely or comprehensive explanation on this matter, giving rise to anger, suspicion, and concern on the part of our valued customers. I hope that our customers can appreciate that this remains an incredibly complex and sensitive issue, and I want to give you my strongest possible assurance that we will be as forthcoming as possible on how this breach occurred and what we are doing to remedy the situation.
What We Know and Actions We Have Taken
AP was notified by a customer that a possible cheating incident occurred during a recent tournament, and in response forwarded players’ hand logs. This disclosure of the hand logs prompted our customers to determine that a more serious security breach had occurred. We immediately launched an internal investigation and also requested a formal audit by Gaming Associates, an acknowledged world-wide expert in audits, interactive gaming tests, and information security.
Based upon our preliminary findings, it appears that the integrity of our poker system was compromised by a high-ranking trusted consultant employed by AP whose position gave him extraordinary access to certain security systems. As has been speculated in several online forums, this consultant devised a sophisticated scheme to manipulate internal systems to access third-party computers and accounts to view hole cards of other customers during play without their knowledge. As this consultant was aware of the details of our fraud detection process, the likelihood that the scheme would be uncovered through our normal procedures was minimized. We consider this security breach to be a horrendous and inexcusable offense.
We will pay for all losses suffered by the affected players as soon as our audit is finished and the amounts are determined. Although we are in the process of attempting to recover all the winnings of this consultant, any unrecovered losses of affected players will be paid by Absolute Poker so that all affected persons will be made whole.
Next Steps
We are still investigating whether the consultant was acting alone or in concert with others, and it appears at this time that all account holders are innocent of collusion and were unaware of any wrong-doing by the consultant, who was immediately terminated. We continue to investigate this matter aggressively, and all of these preliminary findings are subject to the audits currently underway. We have recently uncovered additional accounts used by the consultant that have not been publicly reported. So as to not compromise the investigation, we are not releasing the names of these additional accounts at this time, and will contact these affected customers individually.
The specific allegations of unlawful activity are being investigated both by AP and by the authorized authorities, including the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. We will continue to actively cooperate with these authorities in full compliance with the Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming. In addition to our own investigation and the audit by Gaming Associates, we have also submitted to an audit by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.
Please be assured that we have corrected the problem that allowed the system to be unfairly manipulated. We are working furiously to increase the safeguards within our systems. While we are satisfied that our systems are secured, we realize that our security systems must be continuously monitored and enhanced.
Without question, this incident has been unfortunate for all concerned, and we will emerge as a stronger company. I realize it will take some time and much more information for AP to re-earn the trust and confidence of our customers who are in doubt of our commitment to the highest levels of security, privacy and integrity. As we move to address and correct this situation, our valued customers have played a vital role in uncovering this scheme through various online forums and have become an active part of the solution.
With my full sincerity, I thank you, and I promise to keep you updated as we bring this situation to a close.
Sincerely,
Joe Norton |
Are you really going to split hairs between employed consultant and AP staff member here? Bottom line is, someone paid by Absolute to handle Absolute's systems manipulated them and cheated other players. |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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No but I will quote you in saying "When in a court of law, you're innocent until proven to be guilty"
Who has been charged with absolutepoker and ultimatebet schemes? |
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mgodd
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1161
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Online poker is not regulated by the government. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4301
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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If you plead not guilty, you're presumed not guilty. If, however, you confess to a crime, that confession weighs as evidence of your guilt. If the owner of Absolute comes out and confesses that his company was complicit in cheating, that makes them guilty.
All of this is off-topic to the main point, however. The Absolute situation wasn't rigged in that the gaming mechanics weren't being manipulated. Can we please end this tangent? |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mgodd wrote: |
| Online poker is not regulated by the government. |
What?? Show me something that says that please...
Im sure you would agree that FTP did not write their own gambling license. |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
If you plead not guilty, you're presumed not guilty. If, however, you confess to a crime, that confession weighs as evidence of your guilt. If the owner of Absolute comes out and confesses that his company was complicit in cheating, that makes them guilty.
All of this is off-topic to the main point, however. The Absolute situation wasn't rigged in that the gaming mechanics weren't being manipulated. Can we please end this tangent? |
How where the gaming mechanics not manipulated. Read what you highlighted. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 4301
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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trekk, did you forget the login credentials to your "warm nuts" account?
http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/viewtopic.php?p=531932#531932
| trekk wrote: |
Big snip
I hear you say evidence... can you answer me this? Has FTP ever released any of the programming code to a respectable source so they can prove that it is NOT infact rigged? When in question, the innocent normally prove their innocence. being a programmer myself, I know only how easy it would be.
and btw, your a pretty terrible mod to talk to members of the forum the way you do. your job is to mod, maybe you should just not post ruse things when its not even directed to you. |
http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/viewtopic.php?p=509818#509818
| warm nuts wrote: |
Why dont they end this all by paying out bad beats??? That way no can claim that they are being cheated.
But until FTP compensate bad beat losses, there will always be a ? over rigging the program. and being a programmer myself, I know only how simple it would be to create bad beats in a programmed deck. |
I'm done talking to a multi-accounter. |
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trekk
Pair
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
trekk, did you forget the login credentials to your "warm nuts" account?
http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/viewtopic.php?p=531932#531932
| trekk wrote: |
Big snip
I hear you say evidence... can you answer me this? Has FTP ever released any of the programming code to a respectable source so they can prove that it is NOT infact rigged? When in question, the innocent normally prove their innocence. being a programmer myself, I know only how easy it would be.
and btw, your a pretty terrible mod to talk to members of the forum the way you do. your job is to mod, maybe you should just not post ruse things when its not even directed to you. |
http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/viewtopic.php?p=509818#509818
| warm nuts wrote: |
Why dont they end this all by paying out bad beats??? That way no can claim that they are being cheated.
But until FTP compensate bad beat losses, there will always be a ? over rigging the program. and being a programmer myself, I know only how simple it would be to create bad beats in a programmed deck. |
I'm done talking to a multi-accounter. |
Funny, Since you know nothing about that situation.
But since you know everything, I posted after my brother had accepted cookies, which logged me automatically onto his account. I am sure you know enough about computers to know what cookies are. And since then, I have had FTP lock and freeze his account because he is permanently disabled from an injury. And I am not compromising my account to continue his. And FTP have helped me set up an additional account that is very secure for my brother, which is basically an account for a minor.
Do you still think you know everything that goes on by reading ONLY the forums? Try to find another way to satisfy yourself other than assuming you know everything. You represent FTP in a great way.
you sure dont mind lacking credibility with your resources, "wikiepedia" "Former Chief (In which you say is the current owner", and simply putting two sentences together and guessing they are the same owner. |
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Turniphead89
Pair
Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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From last nights UK freeroll.
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Turniphead89 [7c Tc]
bob1961 folds
D2theAVE folds
well132132 folds
Revelation 07 raises to 160
oX_GREYWOLF_Xo folds
Turniphead89 folds
cornish brute folds
hooligan360 folds
ckeldo calls 80
*** FLOP *** [As 2s 4s]
ckeldo checks
Revelation 07 bets 80
ckeldo calls 80
*** TURN *** [As 2s 4s] [2c]
ckeldo checks
Revelation 07 bets 4,960
ckeldo calls 1,760, and is all in
Revelation 07 shows [8c 2d]
ckeldo shows [Ks Js]
Uncalled bet of 3,200 returned to Revelation 07
*** RIVER *** [As 2s 4s 2c] [2h]
Revelation 07 shows four of a kind, Twos
ckeldo shows a flush, Ace high
Revelation 07 wins the pot (4,040) with four of a kind, Twos
Revelation 07: HAHAHAAHHA
ckeldo stands up |
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Nositi
Four of a Kind
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 297
Location: Vancouver, Canada eh
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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^ same thing happened to my buddy in the casino, except he was holding 77 and hit a 7 on the flop. The other guy's got pocket 2's... completely missed the flop but decides to stay in it for some stupid reason. 2 turn, 2 river.
| trekk wrote: |
You talk about examples and proof, and you want to show me wikipedia? lol... thats the type of joke im talking about. Shall I go on wikipedia and write an article claiming there is proof? cmon guy think, wikipedia is not a credible source. ever. and everyone should know this already.
And when you get down to your bottom line, we go back to saying FTP does not give enough proof (which proof is never impossible as you say it is), so why would someone be able to write anything other than what they beleive. There is nothing showing that it is nor is not legit. |
The argument that Wikipedia is not credible applies mostly to the controversial topics. "Negative proof" is not really a controversial topic... go ahead and google it, you won't find a lot of definitions that disagree with what Wikipedia says. Hell, even the Wiki article has an external link, check that one out. I just think it's funny that you think someone using Wikipedia legitimately is a good reason to trash them.
And you're pretty much just trolling here. You don't explicitly say that the site is rigged, but you're saying that because they don't go out of their way to show you an auditor's report (and they're a private company, they are not required to do so), they probably have something to hide. Hence the link to the Wikipedia article on "negative proof", which is a response to what you're implying. If you really wanted to know about the auditing of FTP, you'd contact KGC. Here, I'll make it easy for you: http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/. Though my guess is you'll just keep trolling. |
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