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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7723
Location: Quitting smoking
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
| Or is this one of those reverse-psychology posts where OP has posted the villain's hand as their own in order to avoid bias? |
If so, fold PF, c/r (or possibly c/c depending on villain, but prob not) the flop, the rest is standard as played. |
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craigo6x
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2729
Location: Cursing the relievers in the bullpen
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| It's not 7 handed, it's a HU pot. We get called by all aces and probably most 7s and a lot of 5s as well, along with a ton of random 1-spade hands that somehow got to the turn, and we also get raised by a bunch of weird pair+spade hands or even just a spade that didn't want to fold the flop for 1 more bet. People don't like folding in limit, so why not give them a chance to call? They get to do what they like and we get to win money. |
Most weak aces are check calling, not leading the flop, and check raising the turn. You will also get bet/called on the flop by Aces up, sets, and flush draws, all of which will check raise the turn (especially if the flush hits).
It's not just how much you win, it's also how much you don't lose. With the flush hitting, OP could have saved herself two big bets
Maybe I give too much credit to players and assume they are going to play better than they do. I think you don't give players enough credit |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6021
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| craigo6x wrote: |
| Riddim wrote: |
| It's not 7 handed, it's a HU pot. We get called by all aces and probably most 7s and a lot of 5s as well, along with a ton of random 1-spade hands that somehow got to the turn, and we also get raised by a bunch of weird pair+spade hands or even just a spade that didn't want to fold the flop for 1 more bet. People don't like folding in limit, so why not give them a chance to call? They get to do what they like and we get to win money. |
Most weak aces are check calling, not leading the flop, and check raising the turn. You will also get bet/called on the flop by Aces up, sets, and flush draws, all of which will check raise the turn (especially if the flush hits).
It's not just how much you win, it's also how much you don't lose. With the flush hitting, OP could have saved herself two big bets
Maybe I give too much credit to players and assume they are going to play better than they do. I think you don't give players enough credit |
at .25/.50 limit, you should generally be thinking "fish until proven good". |
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Riddim
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7723
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| craigo6x wrote: |
| Most weak aces are check calling, not leading the flop, and check raising the turn. You will also get bet/called on the flop by Aces up, sets, and flush draws, all of which will check raise the turn (especially if the flush hits). |
I'm talking about villain's range for bet/calling the flop. What people have when they check/call is irrelevant since that's not what he did. Speaking of what range people will c/c with though, it usually includes pretty much all draws and a decent amount of the hands that beat us as well as worse aces.
Villain will have a worse hand way more often than a better one after donking this flop and calling a raise, even after that turn card hit. Once we get checkraised on the turn we're no longer a favorite to win the pot, but we still win often enough to call down.
Oh, and given your bet/calling range for the villain, shouldn't we be calling the flop donkbet and then raising or calling blank turns and folding spade turns, rather than raising the flop and checking behind on the turn?
| craigo6x wrote: |
| It's not just how much you win, it's also how much you don't lose. With the flush hitting, OP could have saved herself two big bets |
Yes, this time it would've been saving two bets, but a large majority of the time it's losing one bet.
| craigo6x wrote: |
| Maybe I give too much credit to players and assume they are going to play better than they do. I think you don't give players enough credit |
It's not about giving people credit in a hand like this, it's about observing patterns. Trying to use logic and figuring out what level the villain is likely to be on is often futile against really bad players because they so often just do what they feel like, and aren't really on any level.
How much experience do you have at micro to low stakes on FTP? I haven't played those games in quite a while but I did play around 3k hands at .25/.5 last month because of a renewed curiosity about limit and, as a general rule, donkbets were not exactly strong hands.
I don't know if I could give too little credit to a random .25/.5 player if I tried. Not even the winning players at those stakes are good, and that's coming from someone who's pretty bad at limit. I think that part of your problem when giving players too much credit is that you have a skewed idea of how good limit players play the game.
If you have pokertracker, try finding a limit where there's still plenty of loose-passive fish but the stakes are high enough (or the next limit is tough enough) that there are some decent winning players hanging around for more than a little while. Once you've found the appropriate stakes, which I would guess is somwehere around 2/4 or a little higher, datamine the games and look at how the biggest winners over a large sample play.
An alternative would be just going to 2+2, finding out who some of the big winners are and reading their strategy posts. You might be surprised and it will certainly be educational, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong about my assumption. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4143
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| I remember I played a lot of .25/.50 LHE a little while back. I think you could probably find some of my graphs / etc in this forum somewhere. And the line the OP took is definitely the best line against 99% of the crowd at those tables. |
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craigo6x
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2729
Location: Cursing the relievers in the bullpen
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| So let me ask this. Are you guys saying that this is the best line, or the best line at this level? |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7723
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| craigo6x wrote: |
| So let me ask this. Are you guys saying that this is the best line, or the best line at this level? |
At these stakes obv, since that's where the hand took place. In this case I don't really think it matters though, since I have a hard time seeing another line being better against an unknown. |
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craigo6x
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2729
Location: Cursing the relievers in the bullpen
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| craigo6x wrote: |
| So let me ask this. Are you guys saying that this is the best line, or the best line at this level? |
At these stakes obv, since that's where the hand took place. In this case I don't really think it matters though, since I have a hard time seeing another line being better against an unknown. |
What are you learning then if you take this line at these stakes? Do you play this way at $5-10? If you take this line at $5-10, you will get eaten alive, so why are we learning to play this way? |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 7723
Location: Quitting smoking
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| craigo6x wrote: |
| Riddim wrote: |
| craigo6x wrote: |
| So let me ask this. Are you guys saying that this is the best line, or the best line at this level? |
At these stakes obv, since that's where the hand took place. In this case I don't really think it matters though, since I have a hard time seeing another line being better against an unknown. |
What are you learning then if you take this line at these stakes? Do you play this way at $5-10? If you take this line at $5-10, you will get eaten alive, so why are we learning to play this way? |
1) I doubt if we'll get eaten alive taking this line at 5/10, and 2) what line is best at other stakes has no bearing on how a hand should be played at .25/.5. If we always take the same lines vs. unknowns at all stakes we're playing bad poker, it really isn't more complicated than that. In so many cases the ranges we're up against will be different to begin with and will also be played differently, to the point where another line is best. When it comes to this particular hand I doubt if that's the case. Considering how our villain played his hand PF and on the flop, it's pretty safe to assume that he isn't exactly a great player, no matter what the stakes are. Our line is also fairly hard to exploit, assuming that it's part of a balanced range. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4143
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| craigo6x wrote: |
| Riddim wrote: |
| craigo6x wrote: |
| So let me ask this. Are you guys saying that this is the best line, or the best line at this level? |
At these stakes obv, since that's where the hand took place. In this case I don't really think it matters though, since I have a hard time seeing another line being better against an unknown. |
What are you learning then if you take this line at these stakes? Do you play this way at $5-10? If you take this line at $5-10, you will get eaten alive, so why are we learning to play this way? |
We are learning this way because the question was about these stakes. You don't see us talking about advanced NLHE strategy at the micros over there either.
However I have played 8/16 up to 20/40 LHE live and this line would be just as effective there. I think you're way over-estimating the ability and/or nittiness of players at these higher, yet still small stakes. |
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nilgiri
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1547
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry about the HH, it did get messed up. I wasn't trying some tricky reverse-role post... 
Thank you for all the discussion so far... |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: |
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You played it fine. You can't shutdown simply because a draw hits the turn. If you check that turn or muck when he c/r you then you're playing very poorly. At the micro levels people will c/r a turn with an insane amount of hands most of which you will beat enough of the time to make how you played this hand profitable in the long run. If you start going passive every time a draw hits you are missing valuable bets. It is a mistake especially at this level to assume someone hit a draw in a HU pot even if the board could suggest it. I've seen people c/r A,rag/2nd pair/PPs/air/and draws on 3rd street enough to know that you come out ahead in the long run in this situation.
Also You didn't go **** with top pair and this is a case where you lost the least possible with your hand.
The only way you could justify getting away from this hand is if you've played with this guy for hundreds of hands and you know how he plays. However at this level you don't really have to worry about things like that.
Edit: I just saw where you said you're somewhat emulating my early play in the 3k. While this will win you a lot of money really fast it will also sky rocket your variance. The way I play early in the 3k is designed to build me a 4k or more stack by the first break mainly because the blinds are 10 min levels and having that kind of chip stack afterwards allows me to sit back and pick apart the people who really don't understand LHE once the blinds become bigger and their misplays on the 3rd and 4th are magnified by the bigger bets. Not that it can't be effective in a cash game, but if I was to use it in that environment I would adjust it to use more position rather than throwing position out the window which I do sometimes early in LHE tourneys.
Last edited by ridic x on Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| craigo6x wrote: |
| Riddim wrote: |
| craigo6x wrote: |
| So let me ask this. Are you guys saying that this is the best line, or the best line at this level? |
At these stakes obv, since that's where the hand took place. In this case I don't really think it matters though, since I have a hard time seeing another line being better against an unknown. |
What are you learning then if you take this line at these stakes? Do you play this way at $5-10? If you take this line at $5-10, you will get eaten alive, so why are we learning to play this way? |
(I'm talking shorthanded here)
I think I've only logged maybe 300-400 hands at 5/10. I never had the proper roll for it, but took shots here and there. But this is almost exactly how a TAG player at that level would play this hand. Most times at that level the person with the pair and flush draw is capping the flop and building a pot so they can in turn correctly draw to the river or to buy a free look at the river.
The first time I sat in one of those games I did get eaten alive $250 down the toilet in about 15 mins. This was b/c at my usual 1/2 and 2/4 games I was a pretty LAG player and could run people over a good portion of the time or get payed off huge on my made hands from the LAG play. It was exactly the type of player these guys were looking for. I remember there were 2 guys playing exactly like I played and 3 playing TAG. By probably the 10th hand at that table they had all tightened up and ate me alive. My head was spinning that night. The next time I sat in that game I sat as a standard TAG player and the other TAGs and myself would wait for an aggro guy to sit, and we took turns isoing and taking the $300 he sat with.
From what I remember of 5/10 and it's a been a while since I sat in those games. People were just as donkish just in different ways and the aggression spike was the only real difference I found. Other than that as a LHE player I don't see the money as $ amount I see bets and bets only. |
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nilgiri
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1547
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ridic, thank you for the insights.
| ridic x wrote: |
| Edit: I just saw where you said you're somewhat emulating my early play in the 3k. While this will win you a lot of money really fast it will also sky rocket your variance. |
I found this out... I figured I had to be experiencing an upswing, and I was right.
I've quit playing around with LHE for now, but after tomorrow I will play again for a few days. I want to hit silver for the iron-man, and I need one more day of 100 FTPs, which means multitabling $11 6m NLHE turbos, not sitting at a .25/.50 LHE table trying to figure it out. But then I have a few days where I can mess around trying LHE again. |
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thrash1294
Pair
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| the hero lost here. He has to fold the river btet.you gotta know the clown has two pair or better |
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