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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: Cracker Flop |
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As in Ace cracker. Is there enough in the pot to make a call down profitable? Pot is at 1,000 after his turn bet. Calling down costs 320 to win 1,160 or 3.625 to 1. Villain is typical $5 player maybe a tad better. Doesn't play ATC but will make some questionable plays somewhat often. I have only seen him play approx. 15 HE hands because this was a HORSE tournament and we just got to the second round of HE. So any read is sketchy at best.
Full Tilt Poker Game #5218845843: $5 + $0.50 Tournament (39565384), Table 9 - 80/160 - Limit Hold'em - 21:07:37 ET - 2008/02/11
Seat 1: NCQUIETSTORM (362)
Seat 3: Bak3rMc (3,824)
Seat 4: Honest_Rob (3,626)
Seat 5: Trofish (2,386)
Seat 6: CRH334422 (3,387)
Seat 7: Buderus (2,242)
Seat 8: ekwity (2,611)
ekwity posts the small blind of 40
NCQUIETSTORM posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Honest_Rob [As Ad]
Bak3rMc calls 80
Honest_Rob raises to 160
Trofish calls 160
CRH334422 folds
Buderus folds
ekwity has 15 seconds left to act
ekwity folds
NCQUIETSTORM calls 80
Bak3rMc calls 80
*** FLOP *** [9c Qc 7c]
NCQUIETSTORM checks
Bak3rMc checks
Honest_Rob bets 80
Trofish folds
NCQUIETSTORM folds
Bak3rMc calls 80
*** TURN *** [9c Qc 7c] [4c]
Bak3rMc bets 160 |
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live4freerolls
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1725
Location: Micro Ballin
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Why are you min raising preflop and minbetting the flop ?? |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| live4freerolls wrote: |
| Why are you min raising preflop and minbetting the flop ?? |
Because I have Aces of course |
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cubbies760
Next Year Is Here
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 5911
Location: Suburban Chicago
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not a FL player, but here's my take.
You're the aggressor PF, and 4 players see the flop. The flop is suited, and the original limper check/calls. He then bets out on a 4 flushed turn. If he had any 2 pair or any Queen, he's probably check/raising on the flop.
It appears to me by his check/call on the flop, combined with him betting out on the 4-flushed turn, he's got the flush. It's also possible that he was slow playing a strong flush on the flop, and he's hoping you have a respectable flush on the turn. Both scenarios have you drawing dead.
This doesn't seem to me like a place where he's gonna make a questionable play, imo. He hit it on the turn, or he already had it on the flop.
I see no sense in continuing here, even with the 7:2 odds. |
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live4freerolls
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1725
Location: Micro Ballin
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry Rob, i just clicked on this as it was scrolling down, dint notice it was in limit strat lol |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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1. Don't bet the flop. It does nothing to protect your hand and you do not hold a club. It merely builds a pot for worse hands to draw at you.
2. Fold the turn, you're beat. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| live4freerolls wrote: |
| Sorry Rob, i just clicked on this as it was scrolling down, dint notice it was in limit strat lol |
haha I wasn't sure if you were joking or not. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ridic x wrote: |
| 1. Don't bet the flop. It does nothing to protect your hand and you do not hold a club. It merely builds a pot for worse hands to draw at you. |
How can it be incorrect to put money in the pot holding the best hand? Even if a drawing hand has the correct odds to call that doesn't make betting the best(and favorite to win at showdown) hand wrong. |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| ridic x wrote: |
| 1. Don't bet the flop. It does nothing to protect your hand and you do not hold a club. It merely builds a pot for worse hands to draw at you. |
How can it be incorrect to put money in the pot holding the best hand? Even if a drawing hand has the correct odds to call that doesn't make betting the best(and favorite to win at showdown) hand wrong. |
The combined draw of all your opponents is greater than you holding the best hand with 1 pair. You bet to 1. protect your hand 2. get value and/or 3. to build a pot. Betting holding AA against that many people without holding the ace of clubs in this interest does nothing to protect your very vulnerable 1 pair and simply builds a pot making it even more correct for the draws be they flush, pair, 2 pair, straight, ect. to draw out on you. |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3179
Location: Old York
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| ridic x wrote: |
| 1. Don't bet the flop. It does nothing to protect your hand and you do not hold a club. It merely builds a pot for worse hands to draw at you. |
How can it be incorrect to put money in the pot holding the best hand? Even if a drawing hand has the correct odds to call that doesn't make betting the best(and favorite to win at showdown) hand wrong. |
If you have SSHE, go back and read the chapter called "Two Overpair Hands" It's a different example, but the same princpile applies as your overpair is weak and you need to wait for a safe turn and your edge to increase. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| ridic x wrote: |
| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| ridic x wrote: |
| 1. Don't bet the flop. It does nothing to protect your hand and you do not hold a club. It merely builds a pot for worse hands to draw at you. |
How can it be incorrect to put money in the pot holding the best hand? Even if a drawing hand has the correct odds to call that doesn't make betting the best(and favorite to win at showdown) hand wrong. |
The combined draw of all your opponents is greater than you holding the best hand with 1 pair. You bet to 1. protect your hand 2. get value and/or 3. to build a pot. Betting holding AA against that many people without holding the ace of clubs in this interest does nothing to protect your very vulnerable 1 pair and simply builds a pot making it even more correct for the draws be they flush, pair, 2 pair, straight, ect. to draw out on you. |
What other draw besides a flush is calling me on this flop? Do you really expect more than one opponent to call the bet on this flop very often? Checking lets them draw for free. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| fire_eyes_2k wrote: |
| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| ridic x wrote: |
| 1. Don't bet the flop. It does nothing to protect your hand and you do not hold a club. It merely builds a pot for worse hands to draw at you. |
How can it be incorrect to put money in the pot holding the best hand? Even if a drawing hand has the correct odds to call that doesn't make betting the best(and favorite to win at showdown) hand wrong. |
If you have SSHE, go back and read the chapter called "Two Overpair Hands" It's a different example, but the same princpile applies as your overpair is weak and you need to wait for a safe turn and your edge to increase. |
The two main points in that chapter are waiting to bet/raise because a) your bet won't get any of your opponents to fold and b) your pot equity will raise significantly on a safe turn.
This doesn't really apply in this hand imo because I believe my flop bet will get some of my opponents to fold often which thus increases my pot equity greatly right there. If NCQUIETSTORM had led the flop and Bak3r called then just calling rather than raising would be preferred because the raise wouldn't get either of them two to fold though Trofish likely would. In this case the two players in front of me both checked so a bet is likely to fold out two or more players often enough to be effective.
In this hand my pot equity would still raise significantly on a safe turn if we all checked the flop but I don't believe any more so than it does by betting the flop and thus I think betting the flop is the better play. It gets money in the pot with the best hand and eliminates opponents drawing against me. |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| You know you're right I have no idea what I'm talking about with tourney LHE I'm a total donk at that. Far be it from me to give you advice there. If you thought you played it correctly why are you here asking for advice? Especially from me of all people I obviously suck at tourney LHE. |
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Honest_Rob
Postmaster General
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 4997
Location: trying to get back to even
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| ridic x wrote: |
| You know you're right I have no idea what I'm talking about with tourney LHE I'm a total donk at that. Far be it from me to give you advice there. If you thought you played it correctly why are you here asking for advice? Especially from me of all people I obviously suck at tourney LHE. |
Wow. So now instead of discussing a hand you're saying do it because I told you so and I'm your father. The flop play wasn't the reason I posted it. Of course I'm happy to hear input on all streets. I didn't realize you would be so offended if I didn't blindly accept your strategy and actually tried to discuss it. If you can't handle that then please ignore my threads. |
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craigo6x
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2416
Location: The dumps
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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No Rob-he's saying do it cause he's right.
You do not have the Ac. It's bad enough to bet the 3 club board without that Ace, but to continue on the four club board is crazy. |
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