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alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ac 2c] [3d]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [Qs]
Dealt to Adot781 [4d]
Dealt to sb007ck [8d]
Dealt to bhavz [Jh]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Qd]
Dealt to doubleN90 [5c]
GotoHelenBack is high with [Qs]
GotoHelenBack brings in for 25
Adot781 folds
sb007ck has 15 seconds left to act
sb007ck folds
bhavz folds
biggerjohn666 folds
doubleN90 completes it to 80
alex j beeson calls 80
GotoHelenBack calls 55
PERFECT STARTING HAND, I GO AHEAD AND COMPLETE TO LET THE OTHERS KNOW I HAVE A GOOD START.

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ac 2c 3d] [4s]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [Qs] [7h]
Dealt to doubleN90 [5c] [3s]
alex j beeson bets 80
GotoHelenBack has 15 seconds left to act
GotoHelenBack folds
doubleN90 calls 80
BET? WELL DUH!!!

*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ac 2c 3d 4s] [2s]
Dealt to doubleN90 [5c 3s] [3h]
alex j beeson bets 160
doubleN90 folds
Uncalled bet of 160 returned to alex j beeson
alex j beeson mucks
alex j beeson wins the pot (505)
AND IT IS MY POT, EASY TO SHOW STRENGTH WITH A BOARD LIKE THAT.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [8s 9h] [2s]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [9c]
Dealt to Adot781 [8c]
Dealt to sb007ck [Js]
Dealt to bhavz [Qc]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Ks]
Dealt to doubleN90 [5h]
biggerjohn666 is high with [Ks]
biggerjohn666 brings in for 30
doubleN90 folds
alex j beeson completes it to 100
GotoHelenBack folds
Adot781 folds
sb007ck folds
bhavz folds
biggerjohn666 calls 70
THIS HAND CRUSHED ME. I HAVE A 2 SHOWING AND ONLY ONE 5 IS BURNED. I COMPLETE TRYING TO GIVE A STANCE OF A GOOD HAND.

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [8s 9h 2s] [4d]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Ks] [3c]
alex j beeson bets 100
biggerjohn666 calls 100
MY BOARD IS LOOKING PRETTY DARN GOOD... JOHN IS STILL IN, I WONDER WHAT HE HAS IN THE HOLE....

*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [8s 9h 2s 4d] [8d]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Ks 3c] [5d]
alex j beeson bets 200
biggerjohn666 raises to 400
alex j beeson calls 200
WOW! HE RAISED ME, THIS GIVES ME SOME PAUSE AND TREPIDATION...

*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [8s 9h 2s 4d 8d] [Ad]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Ks 3c 5d] [4s]
alex j beeson checks
biggerjohn666 bets 200
alex j beeson calls 200
WELL JOHN HAS ONE SCARY BOARD, I WILL GO AHEAD AND START SAVING AS MANY CHIPS AS I CAN...I AM STARTING TO THINK I HAVE LOST.

*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [8s 9h 2s 4d 8d Ad] [3d]
alex j beeson checks
biggerjohn666 bets 200
alex j beeson calls 200
I HAVE A PERFECT 8. JOHN'S BOARD IS SHOWING A POSSIBLE WHEEL, AND HE WAS RASING BUT HE RAISED BEFORE HE COULD HAVE POSSIBLY CAUGHT THE WHEEL, MAYBE HE IS TRYING TO PUSH ME OFF....

*** SHOW DOWN ***
biggerjohn666 shows [4c 2h Ks 3c 5d 4s Ac] 5,4,3,2,A
alex j beeson mucks
biggerjohn666 wins the pot (2,105) with 5,4,3,2,A
NOPE, HE HAS A GREAT HAND BUT HE CAUGHT IT ON THE 7TH!!!. TECHNICALLY I WAS AHEAD UNTIL THE 7TH. GOOD HAND.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Seat 1: alex j beeson (367)<==== HEAVY SIGH
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack (2,778)
Seat 4: Adot781 (1,096)
Seat 5: sb007ck (1,493)
Seat 6: bhavz (218), is sitting out
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 (4,736)
Seat 8: doubleN90 (1,312)

Well, we have finished about a 3rd of the game. I am back to almost no chips. The very next hand gives me hope again.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [5h 6h] [Ac]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [4h]
Dealt to Adot781 [Ah]
Dealt to sb007ck [8d]
Dealt to bhavz [3h]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [9s]
Dealt to doubleN90 [4s]
biggerjohn666 is high with [9s]
biggerjohn666 brings in for 30
doubleN90 folds
alex j beeson calls 30
GotoHelenBack completes it to 100
Adot781 folds
sb007ck folds
bhavz folds
biggerjohn666 calls 70
alex j beeson calls 70
WELL THIS IS NICE, I ONLY CALL THE BRING IN BECAUSE I AM BACK IN CONSERVATIVE MODE. LET'S SEE THE 4TH...

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [5h 6h Ac] [7s]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [4h] [5s]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [9s] [Qs]
GotoHelenBack bets 100
biggerjohn666 has 15 seconds left to act
biggerjohn666 folds
alex j beeson calls 100
HELEN IS GONNA BE THE ONE WHO TRYS TO GET ME, HER BOARD IS LOOKING GOOD, BUT MY HAND IS JUST FINE TOO.

*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [5h 6h Ac 7s] [Ts]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [4h 5s] [Qh]
alex j beeson checks
GotoHelenBack bets 200
alex j beeson calls 152, and is all in
GotoHelenBack shows [5c 3c 4h 5s Qh]
alex j beeson shows [5h 6h Ac 7s Ts]
Uncalled bet of 48 returned to GotoHelenBack
SHE PUTS ME ALL IN. HER Q IS WORSE THAN MY 10. I AM OUT OF CHIPS SO THIS IS A NO BRAINER.

*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [5h 6h Ac 7s Ts] [Tc]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [5c 3c 4h 5s Qh] [9h]
SHE PAIRED ON 4TH I LEARN QUICKLY, IT LOOKS GOOD ON THE 5TH BUT THE 6TH MADE ME THINK "EVIL GAME".

*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [5h 6h Ac 7s Ts Tc] [Td]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [5c 3c 4h 5s Qh 9h] [Kh]
GotoHelenBack shows [5c 3c 4h 5s Qh 9h Kh] Q,9,5,4,3
alex j beeson shows [5h 6h Ac 7s Ts Tc Td] T,7,6,5,A
alex j beeson wins the pot (909) with T,7,6,5,A
MY 10 HELD UP. THE PAIR OF 5'S KILLED HER ALONG WITH THE BRICKS AT THE END. SUCH AN EVIL GAME I BET HELEN IS THINKING....

side_tracked · Straight Flush Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Posts: 359

mathman1115 · Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject:

Most players could improve their razz game by just ignoring this thread.

cubbies760 · Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject:

I'm wondering what lesson your teaching when after 22 hands you have lost 85% of your stack.....

Big Slick x13x · Forum Icon Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 4127 Location: ROK

I'm asking if it's a joke because just after seeing the first hand I can tell that this will hurt more people's razz game then help it. If you would like to discuss razz theory and definitely improve your game, I'll be happy to go over HH w/ you through AiM. My name on there is the same as it is here. There are proven solid razz players on this forum that have answered these questions and would probably be willing to participate in a serious discussion.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Yes cubbies, 85% gone, on hand 51 caught this one.

When should a player raise? When they are ahead of course.

Seat 1: alex j beeson (702)
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack (1,796)
Seat 4: Adot781 (626)
Seat 5: sb007ck (1,773)
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 (5,696)
Seat 8: doubleN90 (1,407)
alex j beeson antes 20
GotoHelenBack antes 20
Adot781 antes 20
sb007ck antes 20
biggerjohn666 antes 20
doubleN90 antes 20
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ad 5s] [2c]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [5c]
Dealt to Adot781 [Qh]
Dealt to sb007ck [5h]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Jh]
Dealt to doubleN90 [4s]
Adot781 is high with [Qh]
Adot781 brings in for 40
sb007ck has 15 seconds left to act
sb007ck folds
biggerjohn666 folds
doubleN90 completes it to 120
alex j beeson calls 120
GotoHelenBack raises to 240
Adot781 folds
doubleN90 calls 120
alex j beeson calls 120
GREAT STARTING HAND. ONLY 1 CARD I COULD USE HAS BEEN BURNED THAT I KNOW OF.

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ad 5s 2c] [7s]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [5c] [9s]
Dealt to doubleN90 [4s] [Qc]
alex j beeson bets 120
GotoHelenBack raises to 240
doubleN90 folds
alex j beeson raises to 360
GotoHelenBack calls 120
MY HAND IMPROVES. HELEN RAISES. I KNOW FOR A FACT I AM AHEAD SO I RE-RAISE. I AM SHORT STACK MAYBE SHE IS JUST TRYING FOR THE KILL.

*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ad 5s 2c 7s] [As]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [5c 9s] [Tc]
alex j beeson bets 82, and is all in
GotoHelenBack calls 82
alex j beeson shows [Ad 5s 2c 7s As]
GotoHelenBack shows [2s 6d 5c 9s Tc]
ALL IN AND I AM AN ALMOST SURE WINNER.

*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ad 5s 2c 7s As] [3c]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [2s 6d 5c 9s Tc] [Th]
ON 6TH STREET OPPONENT IS DRAWING DEAD. GOOD DOUBLE UP.

*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [Ad 5s 2c 7s As 3c] [Ts]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [2s 6d 5c 9s Tc Th] [Qs]
alex j beeson shows [Ad 5s 2c 7s As 3c Ts] 7,5,3,2,A
GotoHelenBack shows [2s 6d 5c 9s Tc Th Qs] T,9,6,5,2
alex j beeson wins the pot (1,764) with 7,5,3,2,A
The limits are now 150/300 with an ante of 25

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Two hands later. an example of having a weak starting hand can win with the proper show of strength at the correct time.

This is also an example of when one can attempt to take a pot with a far less than perfect starting hand.

Seat 1: alex j beeson (1,739)
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack (1,069)
Seat 5: sb007ck (1,728)
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 (5,601)
Seat 8: doubleN90 (1,863)
alex j beeson antes 25
GotoHelenBack antes 25
sb007ck antes 25
biggerjohn666 antes 25
doubleN90 antes 25
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [3s 3d] [4s]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [Tc]
Dealt to sb007ck [Kc]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [Qh]
Dealt to doubleN90 [8c]
sb007ck is high with [Kc]
sb007ck brings in for 50
biggerjohn666 folds
doubleN90 folds
alex j beeson completes it to 150
GotoHelenBack raises to 300
sb007ck folds
alex j beeson calls 150
STARTING WITH A PAIR IN THE HOLE BUT THE OPPONENT CANNOT KNOW THAT. COMPLETE THE HAND HELEN RAISES. HELEN IS MOST CERTAINLY AHEAD BUT I CALL. THE BOARD SHOWS NO CARDS THAT I NEED. GOOD CALL AND GOOD TIME TO ATTEMPT A STEAL WITH A WEAK STARTING HAND.

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [3s 3d 4s] [8h]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [Tc] [As]
alex j beeson checks
GotoHelenBack bets 150
alex j beeson calls 150
I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE RAISED HERE.

*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [3s 3d 4s 8h] [5s]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [Tc As] [Td]
alex j beeson bets 300
GotoHelenBack folds
Uncalled bet of 300 returned to alex j beeson
alex j beeson mucks
alex j beeson wins the pot (1,075)
DARN RIGHT THERE IS A BET HERE. I HAVE NOW TAKEN THE LEAD, HELEN WISELY FOLDS.

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,075 | Rake 0
Seat 1: alex j beeson collected (1,075), mucked
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack folded on 5th St.
Seat 5: sb007ck folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: doubleN90 folded on 3rd St.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Hand 58, some razz players say that it is not about the best hand but about representing the best hand. This is true, but representing the best hand is NOT the best hand. as this hand shows.

I contend that if you have completed your hand 8 high then it is worth it to see to the 7th unless faced with and OBVIOUS wheel or some read tells you you cannot win. Many players will fod out the best hand because of the tough board they see in front of them.

Seat 1: alex j beeson (2,239)
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack (669)
Seat 5: sb007ck (1,503)
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 (5,551)
Seat 8: doubleN90 (2,038)
alex j beeson antes 25
GotoHelenBack antes 25
sb007ck antes 25
biggerjohn666 antes 25
doubleN90 antes 25
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [7s 2s] [6d]
Dealt to GotoHelenBack [8h]
Dealt to sb007ck [9c]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [5h]
Dealt to doubleN90 [7h]
sb007ck is high with [9c]
sb007ck brings in for 50
biggerjohn666 completes it to 150
GotoHelenBack: daughtert gave all my money away, lmao
doubleN90 folds
alex j beeson calls 150
GotoHelenBack folds
sb007ck folds
DECENT STARTING HAND. CALL THE COMPLETION.

*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [7s 2s 6d] [9h]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [5h] [7c]
biggerjohn666 has 15 seconds left to act
biggerjohn666 bets 150
alex j beeson has 15 seconds left to act
alex j beeson calls 150
THOUGH I CAUGHT 9, I GAVE IT SOME THOUGHT, I AM SLIGHTLY BEHIND MOST LIKELY. I CALL THINKING IF I BRICK OR PAIR THEN FOLD. TO WIN AT RAZZ ONE CANNOT GIVE UP TOO EARLY, AND THE OPPONENT HAS NO WHEEL AS OF YET.

*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [7s 2s 6d 9h] [5s]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [5h 7c] [4c]
biggerjohn666 bets 300
alex j beeson has 15 seconds left to act
alex j beeson calls 300
GOOD DRAW, WHAT I AM LOOKING AT IS A POSSIBLE (UNLIKELY) COMPLETED 754 HIGH AGAINST MY 765 HIGH DRAW.

*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [7s 2s 6d 9h 5s] [8s]
Dealt to biggerjohn666 [5h 7c 4c] [5d]
alex j beeson checks
biggerjohn666 has 15 seconds left to act
biggerjohn666 bets 300
alex j beeson calls 300
THE 8 IS NOT SOO BAD AS THE OPPONENT HAS CAUGHT A PAIR. I NOW HAVE A COMPLETED HAND THOUGH 876 HIGH COMPLETED 8 AND UNDER NONE THE LESS. OPPONENT HAS MINIMUM ONE PAIR, AND MAY NOT HAVE EVEN YET COMPLETED. OPPONENT TAKES SOME TIME THINKING ABOUT IT AND I DETERMINED THAT IF HE HAD COMPLETED WHY PAUSE? HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT HIS HAND MIGHT BE BEAT.

*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to alex j beeson [7s 2s 6d 9h 5s 8s] [Td]
alex j beeson checks
biggerjohn666 has 15 seconds left to act
biggerjohn666 checks
10 IS A BRICK, TO LIMIT POTENTIAL LOSS IN CASE I AM BEAT I CHECK. WHEN OPPONENT CHECKS I KNOW I HAVE HIM.

*** SHOW DOWN ***
biggerjohn666 shows [Kd Ts 5h 7c 4c 5d 2c] T,7,5,4,2
alex j beeson shows [Td 7s 6d 9h 5s 8s 2s] 8,7,6,5,2
alex j beeson wins the pot (1,975) with 8,7,6,5,2
OPPONENT STARTED WITH EITHER A 10 OR A K ON THE STARTING HAND.

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,975 | Rake 0
Seat 1: alex j beeson showed [Td 7s 6d 9h 5s 8s 2s] and won (1,975) with 8,7,6,5,2
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: sb007ck folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 showed [Kd Ts 5h 7c 4c 5d 2c] and lost with T,7,5,4,2
Seat 8: doubleN90 folded on 3rd St.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

You hear all the time "You have to make reads on your opponents". Are they loose aggresive? Are they tight? etc etc.

Well that is fine, but tell me exactly how one comes to make those reads?

On a hand what tells you if someone is loose or tight?

If you get a read on someone and you fold out and dont see their cards then how do you know if your read is correct or not?

I contend that sometimes you have to lose a hand just to find something out about a player.

If in a brick and morter game, someone makes a big bet on the river, you study them and you see and eye twitch or some other tell. You tell yourself, that is that persons tell if they are bluffing. Well you cannot know that for sure unless you call them and find out if it is in fact the tell for a bluff or the tell of having a monster.

On online poker you cannot see your opponent, you must make decisions on the type of player they are by the cards they play and the patterns they have, which means calling them and reviewing the hand history!!!!

then, and only then will one have an accurate read on someone.

Sure, in the first half of the game i spent a lot of chips but you will see that it paid off later. Of course it is risky, of course it may backfire but this is gambling isnt it?

Comment on the hands then, tell what I did wrong, don't just insult.

In the end I won this match. When I sit down at a Razz SnG i feel confident that I will at very least make the money. Not so in any other game I play but I am still learning.

OH YES I WON THIS MATCH. So say what you like about me but at least look at the hands posted and comment directly on them along with my notes on what I was thinking. THAT is how human beings convey ideas and points of veiw and we learn.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

After that last hand i posted I am now firmly in 2nd place gaining on Big John who has been the chip leader for quite a while now.
At this point I let the other players take each other out. I steal a few blinds and keep my chip stack fairly level until soon, it is down to 3.

Seat 1: alex j beeson (3,289)
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack (644)
Seat 5: sb007ck (1,428)
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 (4,626)
Seat 8: doubleN90 (2,01

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

This is how it started for in the money part of the SnG.
All of us are about even. Both Helen and John are good players.
Helen is aggresive.
John can read hands well and knows if he is ahead or behind in a hand.

Seat 1: alex j beeson (4,168)
Seat 3: GotoHelenBack (3,608)
Seat 7: biggerjohn666 (4,224)

Big Slick x13x · Forum Icon Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 4127 Location: ROK

I'll give some general advice right now and if you want more either make specific inquiries or get a hold of me on aim.

You're playing what appears to be a low limit razz sng, basically you already know that the avg player is too loose for this type of game, so you have to tighten up and push your edges hard. Stop cold calling raises on 3rd street. Either raise or fold. Especially stop doing this with a pair in your hand. The reads you talk about making in an online game where players don't know what the hell they're actually doing is pointless. Paying somebody off in a sng to confirm a read is just burning money. If you play with them enough to need a read, the read will present itself. I don't mean to sound egotistical or cocky, but I am a very good reader of people and situations especially relating to poker. I'm sure there are quite a few people on this forum that could vouch for that. You don't have to explain reads to me.

I also have a good track record w/ stud games including a razz sng where I came back from a 7:1 deficit HU to beat chris ferguson.

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