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bisepost · High Card Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Posts: 16

so i've read all the razz strategy i can find. I'm trying some different plays out at relatively low limit tables. It seems like i either go up 40 dollars in just a few hands or i can't get a starting hand all night.

Out of my last 5 razz sessions there have been two particularly bad run of cards. the first run i got a 'playable' hand (3 to an 8 low) twice in 42 hands and when i played them, i ran right into pairs or paint. The second run i got 4 playable hands in 60 total hands... and this includes super rough 3 cards to an 8 low.

I steal antes whenever i can just to stay in the game. I sometimes bluff (works about 2/3 of the time for me so i can justify it). but generally it gets to where i get on tilt and play bad and very loose by the end of these runs.

I really enjoy razz, but how do you avoid tilting when this happens?

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

OK man I will help you out here.

First off, there is no way to avoid tilt, if you find yourself tilting, take a break. There will be times when you don't get any good starting hands for a looonnnggg time.

So, how do you combat this?

Ok, first thing you have to think about is this, OUTs.

Let me explain.

8 players at a table, you are dealt, A,10 4 showing.
other 7 players cards showing are;
1. A
2. 4
3. 4
4. 10
5. K
6. 8
7. A

Ok, remember, this is at the beginning on your staring 3 cards.
You have no idea what the hole cards are, so don't think about those at this moment. You have to make decisions based on what you know for a fact at the time.
three A's are out,
three 4's are out
two 10's are out

You have a small chance of actually pairing any of your cards. No one else knows you have a 10 in the hole.
By all means, play this and see the 4th.
Depending on the players on the table, complete or re-raise this to show strength.
Pay attention to the cards that are folded.

Try the same example. different read, you have A, 10 and a 4 showing.
players have showing as follows
1. 2
2. 3
3. 7
4. 2
5. 5
6. 9

You don't want to play your hand, why? 4 of the cards you need to get a good hand are burned already. most likely what is coming is face cards!!!

Fold and wait for better boards more in your favor of the hand you are holding.

I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you.

Trust me, to get far you cannot afford to wait for the perfect A23 hand to come. They might not ever come at the session you are playing and there is never any garentee you will hit your hands any way.

I have not even spoken about position in the hand, or player types.
If you are pegged as super tight even when you hit the great starting hands smart players will fodl to you anyway and you wont get paid off.

Good luck
Peace

ManilaDog · Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:51 am Post subject:

its like avoiding a pretty woman cause you're afraid of her.Dont avoid it......relax and enjoy it

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Out of my last 5 razz sessions there have been two particularly bad run of cards. the first run i got a 'playable' hand (3 to an 8 low) twice in 42 hands and when i played them, i ran right into pairs or paint. The second run i got 4 playable hands in 60 total hands... and this includes super rough 3 cards to an 8 low.

Ok, thing to remember, pairs are bad, but pairs SHOWING are worse then pairing your hole cards. Say you get dealt,
A2 3 showing, on 4th street you get an A, and on 5th street you get a 3,

Your opponent is showing 6,9.

It makes no difference that you have pairs, he doesnt know that, all he knows is that you have one scary board. Bet em, don't be afraid.

Also, rememer this about a hand, on 5th street your opponent is showing
AA9, Trust me he is likely gonna get stuck with that 9. Say on 6th street he gets a 10. Now he is sure to be stuck with a 9 and may just be stuck with a 10.

In the hole he has an 56, he has 58,A,A,9,8
You have 4,5 8, K, 7, 10. You only see xx AA98. What do you do? Beleive it or not you have a good chance of taking this one. He is thinking you are weak, he may stay in, then again his hand is weak, a bet may push him off. On 4th street he is thinking OK we are about even most likely. On 4th you hit a K and he pairs his A's. you both check maybe. On 5th you hit a 7, he a 9. He may get a bit nervous here but on the 6th when he sees your 10 he knows you are on a draw for a hand better than a 10. This may not be such a good example but just remember this;

How many times you seen an A234567 dealt?

On almost every hand at least one brick, pair, face card and utter trash will be in a players deck. Sometimes we get lucky and catch our first 5 cards nicely and complete by the 5th, but not often.

A rule maybe you tell your self is 4 good cards by the 5th street and checking the board and what has been folded. then make a decision as to if to proceed. Dont give up every hand just cause you brick or pair on the 4th. Especially if you just pair a hole card on the 4th, your opponents don't know that. Watch your opponents closey, review the hands that make it to showdown (hole cards are shuffled at showdown from highest to lowest, so assume the order of the cards are what would have been most benifical and nice to your opponent). Find out which players are playing two good cards or three at the start. Some players will not under any circumstances play any cards on 3rd that are not good. You can take from them easily.

Now, depending on what has been folded, burned on the hand previously, and you find yourself at showdown against an opponent that has 3 cards of the wheel showing (and a brick, junk card) and they are betting like they have the wheel and you are holding a perfect 7 (A2347) or even a 76543 or a perfect 8 even (A2348) call them. You might lose, but most times they were bluffing.

Always, always be wary of an 87 high against an 8 showing but you don't see a 7. Many times that 7 will haunt you as they end up having an 86.
this goes for 98, etc. An 87 is not really a super strong hand but it isnt totally weak either. It all depends on what has been burned already, and what you opponent most likely has.

You know of course that if an opponent is showing a 987 that he CANNOT have a better hand then a 7high, if you have a 6 you have won. A 10,9,8 showing cannot be better than a perfect 8 (unlikely but depends on burns) so your 7 high is golden.

Use your head, understand that your opponent is getting those same bricks and pairs that you have been seeing (granted, maybe not at the SAME time as you on a particular hand) and the true game is not in the cards but in the players and what type of players they are.

pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:16 am Post subject:

For me the game doesn't even start until fourth street. I take notice of the outs on the board sure. Not particularly because I want to know what is available to me, but what is unavailable to my opponent's. If I have two low cards. lets say A K door 4 and the board looks like this.

xx2
xx9
xx3
xx2
xxQ
xx6
xxA
xx5

Lots of what I need is on the board already, but more importantly, a lot of what my opponents need is out there too. This tells me my hand is damn near as good as anybody's right now. I won't really know where I stand until fourth street. I'm calling anything.

If on fourth I don't improve, or someone else improves, I am going to start to look for a way out. But if I improve and perhaps only one of the other guys improve, and the rest miss, I will bet. Then its a race. By fifth the picture will become clearer.

You have to stay to a point, and know what that point is. You should never ever tilt in this game. Just get a basic plan, stick to it, and stay disciplined. IMO this game is not about early aggression, and it certainly is not about chasing your money into the pot. You have to consider whats in front of you, and test your opponents when you have the best hand. You get the FFFFF out of the way when you have crap. If your unsure on fifth street, you have no business on sixth. Just wait for a better opportunity.

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Oh you are so right on that pcola.

Good advice for the OP for sure.
I was attempting to give the OP some ways of thinking in making decisions as to wether or not to play a less than premium hand and how to decide if to take the risk.

The OP should read your advice on the "Razz is easy" thread formore insight.

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 139

alex j beeson · Royal Flush Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 835

Special is right with his comment. Even though you have (AK)4 you would not want to play that hand as too many of the cards you need are burned all ready.
If the board were more like this:
(xx)4
(xx)J
(xx)9
(xx)A
(xx)K
(xx)4
(xx)5

Then that would be a better spot to consider trying the less than premium hand. You would most certainly not pair your 4 and less likely to pair your A but you would definately have to watch the 5 and he would need to brick (in the hole or board) or pair (hopefully on the board so you know he has paired) and you would have to draw with no bricks or pairs in the next two streets.

Say for example the 5 completes and you call and on 4th he draws a 10 and you a 6 (villian (xx)5,10 Hero (AK)4, 6) You bet and show strength, he calls. His call tells you that the 10 is his first brick most likely.

On 5th the following happens; Villian (xx)5, 10, A Hero (AK)4,6,7. You bet and he calls. He hasnt completed yet and cant beat you 7, he figures you have completed but now you KNOW he has no bricks in the hole.

On 6th; Villian (xx)5, 10, A, 3 Hero (AK)4,6,7,J. He checks, you bet and he raises! Watch out, he has your 7 beat. He would figure that you are 7 high, and now you know he has 6,2 in the hole, (he woun't have a 4, all but one of the 4's have been burned but he MIGHT have the wheel but very unlikely. Most likely he has the 6 for sure and a 2.) Now you have to decide, is this a player that starts with bricks in the hole? Does he only start with premium hands? Show all the stregth you want, if he has completed he is in till the end now. You are still on a draw. Even if you hit you may not be able to win.
Now most would not fold here, depending on on the size of the antes it may be pretty cheap to continue to see the last card, In fact you would have to just to be sure. With the board starting like it did it is unlikely he has bricks in the hole. All the other players (Including yourself) got the bricks.

pcola pat · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject:

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 139

Dashir · Pair Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 44

I think the main point for the OP is that you can't restrict your starting hands to 3 to an 8. There aren't enough of them and they aren't always going to win. At the very least you need to add 2 to a 6 where your high card is hidden.

BTW, I'm not the only one who occassionally completes with hands like (K5)2. The completion can drive out some marginal hands and gives you bluffing power if out draw your opponent on the next two cards. So while you have to be cautious, I wouldn't come to too many conclusions about what your opponents hole cards are until you see his tendancies.

Don't forget to look at all the cards on the table. That can tell you whether you should bother with the hand at all. You see ten cards to start, so only 42 left and if your opponent has four or five more outs then you do, it can be grim.

I really wish they wouldn't shuffle the cards on showdown... maybe we should petition.

pcola pat · Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject:

There is far more to this game than the odds of probability. Anyone who disagrees with that, please sit at my table.

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 139

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 139

moah sparks · High Card Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 4 Location: Michigan

i can assume that if you are subject to tilt, that others are as well.
even in dry spells, these "other" folks are there too.
so don't limit yourself to solid premium cards.
don't take a seat on the chariot, but watch for these tilted, and stay alive through your dry times.

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