Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

griffinlord · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Call or Fold

I've been having some trouble in this situation and I want some thoughts.

the game is 6-max FLHE micros

In a fairly typical hand I'm on the button with QJo.

There are two limpers to me giving a call ~3.5 - 1 pot odds, which seems good enough to see a flop so I limp.

SB raises, BB folds, limpers call so now there are 8 bets in the pot and it is one more to me, and I close the betting.

I've been calling in these cases because the 8-1 is just too tempting. On the other hand, the SB raising suggests a strong hand and maybe I should just be giving it up?

Thoughts/recommendations?

craigo6x · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject:

First-you need to be raising the button with QJ in an unopened pot. If the blind raises and everyone limps along-call every day. You have a decent starting hand and position. Take a flop and see what happens.

mathman1115 · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject:

I don't play much 6 handed, but i think limping or or raising the button is ok. It depends on the table. If the table is tight, a raise will give you control. If its loose, i wanna see a cheap flop with QJo.

I wouldn't be too afraid of the SB raise. Yes, he could have a premuim hand, perhaps one that dominates you, but you are still getting 8 to 1. Besides, with several limpers, he could be raising a drawing hand to build a pot, such as suited connectors or Ax suited or even a pocket pair. Definetly call the raise, and see what develops

griffinlord · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:03 am Post subject:

Good, I thought taking the flop was going to be okay, but now I get into trouble:

Flop comes Q rag rag rainbow.

SB bets, 2 limpers call, I raise, SB three bets, limpers fold and it is back to me.

At this point I am wondering if the SB has a bigger Q, but there is so much money in the pot I think I have to peel one off and see if I improve.

At this level I've yet to see a three bettor fold to a 4th bet on the flop so raising isn't getting a worse hand to fold and I'm sufficiently worried about a big Q that I just call.

So far I think I played this okay, but maybe I missed something?

David Petina · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:18 am Post subject:

I haven't played a lot of 6 handed, but might have raised pre-flop to take control of the hand. I agree that calling the raise to finish off the betting is fine.

After the flop, I think you are right that 4 betting is not going to get a weaker hand off, so there is no point. Besides, probably the only weaker Q that a small blind would raise with is Q-10 suited. So, since the SB raised pre-flop, bet out and re-raised on the flop, I think a bigger Q, a premium hand like A-A or K-K or even a set on one of the rags are all possible. However, this is micro limits so something like 10-10 or A-K is also possible. Therefore, I definitely call the re-raise.

In fact, there are now 16 bets or 8 big bets in the pot (8.5 if you call the re-raise) and you are heads up. So, I think if anything other than an A or K hits on the turn, you have to call a bet there as well. If an A or K hits, then I probably let it go, unless I believe that my opponent is capable of betting something like 10-10 with two over cards on board (but realistically I'm more than 90% to fold, figuring if my opponent could re-raise the flop and bet when the A or K hit, than either I was beat on the flop or I am now). If anything other than an A or K hits the turn and he bets, then I call for sure and at that point its an automatic call on the river (even if an A or K hits then) because it's more than 11-1 and for those odds, he's got to show me the winning hand.

Dave

ridic x · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:29 am Post subject:

If you're on the button with QJ and it's limped to you RAISE, IF YOU DON'T RAISE I WILL SLAP YOU. If I remember correctly from my numbers I used to have QJ shows a slight profit when played from the button for a raise, limping shows a slight loss.

In a short-handed game I like to be the one pushing the action, I either open the raising or I'm 3 betting to attempt isolation. Limping is a rarity and usually for me only happens when I'm the SB.

In short get more aggressive Razz

I can elaborate more if you want. Just lemme know.

ridic x · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:33 am Post subject:

griffinlord · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject:

ridic x · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject:

Turn showing an ace is nothing you want to see, and possibly nothing he wants to see. I'd call it, if he checks the river I put in a bet for value from say a weaker queen or some mid PP. If he leads the river I almost have to put him on a Q. Possibly a Q,rag that out-flopped you for 2 pair, or outside shot at an ace,rag. Honestly, with you being new to the table, I'd even call down here just to see how the guy plays his hands, so it'd cost you at min 3.5 BB to see what and how he bets which could win you much more later.

Sometimes taking a small loss early can pay off big later, not to mention it can send mis-information their way. Plus even if he did say hit the turn ace, you could always spike a Q for trips or a J for 2 pair.

griffinlord · Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject:

Yep, the turned A was an ugly sight for me.

Villain lead both the turn and river and I called down.

Villain showed AQo for top 2.

Even without much info I felt like I was beat on the flop and was kicking myself for not saving the 2BB on the turn and river. But maybe that is too results oriented.

But I know that I am having a lot of trouble with second best hands. I seem to be outkicked a lot more often than I'd like and I'm really trying to get a handle on when I should get away from a hand (or not play it in the first place).

I don't think I'm playing too loose preflop, but I am sure dumping lots of chips post-flop. I know that some of the chip dumping is just bad luck...but I feel like I'm dumping way too many chips for it to be just bad luck and I'm really frustrated trying to get my post-flop play in order.

The good news is that I have a new book on SH play in the mail and another that I will be ordering in the next few days---and I'm really motivated to study after another 100BB chip dump last night. Sad

David Petina · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:30 am Post subject:

Griffinlord,

I think that 3 things will help.

One being more aggressive pre-flop. In the hand you listed, if you raise and the SB re-raises and then bets out on the flop, you can probably figure that either he has A-K or you are beat. So, at worst you raise the flop to see about A-K and then let it go when he re-raises or when the A hits on the turn. That would save you at least 2 BB.

Two is being extremely selective with your starting cards. If you are losing with second best hand a lot, then tighten up for a while. Play only top 10 or top 20 hands and be extremely aggressive with them.

Three is to either use your tracking software or notes to get a better fix on your opponents. You might even limit multi-tabling for a bit and literally try and put every player on a hand every time they are involved, especially when you are not. I read this in Sklansky's Hold'em book and it has really helped my game. I also check the last hand anytime something goes to showdown to see the cards that weren't revealed (yeah I know it would suck to ask to see every time in a live game, but since the software lets me do it, I take advantage). I use the info to build up my notes on opponents and it has helped me get off 2nd best hands on a number of occasions. It has also allowed me to more confidently call and/or re-raise opponents that I know get over aggressive with top pair and a weak kicker or even 2nd pair. This level of observation will also help with your hand selection. If you know that villain A only plays premium hands from early position and will often limp in with them, then you can let go of hands like Q-J off from middle position when he limps in. It might not always be right, but it will keep you off a lot of 2nd best hands against him and therefore be +EV.

I hope either this advice or the new books help!

Dave

ridic x · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:39 am Post subject:

griffinlord · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject:

Sadly I think that I knew most of this already, but have lost any ability to act correctly on the knowledge.

In the example hand, when the A hit I was absolutely sure I was beat by a paired ace...but I called down anyway hoping to hit my J on the river, I suppose....without odds Confused

I played some short sessions on Sunday. The last of them I had two hands where I was certain I was way behind, but I called down anyway...costing at least 4.5bb.

I did okay on Sunday, but most sessions these days I am absolutely uncertain what my opponents have. I need to redevelop my ability to decide if my second pair is any good and to relearn how to get away from hands when I am beat.

Maybe I did okay on the hand I used in this thread, but I had a couple on Sunday where I said out loud that I was beat on the flop, I called down and....I was beat on the flop either drawing real thin or dead.

griffinlord · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject:

David Petina · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:

Griffinlord,

The information you get if someone 3 bets is always a nice bonus, like you said it can save you big bets later on. Also, thanks ridic for catching my mistake, I forgot that Griffinlord was playing mostly shorthanded and was thinking full table. But, he still might need to tighten up a little from where he is at, since he's losing w/ 2nd best hands.

Dave

	Full Tilt Poker is licensed by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. © Copyright 2004 - 2005 FullTiltPoker.com., All Rights Reserved