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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 3389
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: Let's take this hand piece by piece |
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I'm going to chunk this hand, but still post it all at once in pieces. Respond to each piece as if you don't know what happens next, although its pretty obvious i played this till the river or i wouldn't be posting it. Respond to each piece as the situation presents itself (ie if you think i should have folded 3rd street, still respond to further streets as played)
Full Tilt Poker Game #3342300494: Table Cimarron - $0.50/$1 Ante $0.10 - Limit Stud Hi - 17:18:37 ET - 2007/08/23
Seat 1: Zophar ($17.90)
Seat 2: Mathman1115 ($32.25)
Seat 3: naildriver76 ($15.45)
Seat 4: legend29 ($118.90)
Seat 5: Docdiesel ($11.40)
Seat 6: BbBrwn ($100.60)
Seat 7: qamman ($14.70)
Seat 8: NedRierson ($14.25)
qamman antes $0.10
Zophar antes $0.10
Docdiesel antes $0.10
Mathman1115 antes $0.10
naildriver76 antes $0.10
NedRierson antes $0.10
BbBrwn antes $0.10
legend29 antes $0.10
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Zophar [4h]
Dealt to Mathman1115 [6d 6h] [2s]
Dealt to naildriver76 [Ks]
Dealt to legend29 [5s]
Dealt to Docdiesel [5c]
Dealt to BbBrwn [Kh]
Dealt to qamman [9s]
Dealt to NedRierson [4s]
Mathman1115 is low with [2s]
Mathman1115 brings in for $0.15
naildriver76 completes it to $0.50
legend29 calls $0.50
Docdiesel folds
BbBrwn calls $0.50
qamman folds
NedRierson folds
Zophar folds
Mathman1115 ???
My 6s are live, i'm already in for the bring in, and there are 3 others in. Should i complete this?
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Mathman1115 calls $0.35
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mathman1115 [6d 6h 2s] [Qc]
Dealt to naildriver76 [Ks] [9c]
Dealt to legend29 [5s] [8d]
Dealt to BbBrwn [Kh] [3s]
naildriver76 bets $0.50
legend29 folds
BbBrwn calls $0.50
Mathman1115 ???
The K is still betting, but one is out, and i caught a live Q. My call would close the betting, and the pot is growing. Should i call?
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Mathman1115 calls $0.50
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mathman1115 [6d 6h 2s Qc] [Qs]
Dealt to naildriver76 [Ks 9c] [7h]
Dealt to BbBrwn [Kh 3s] [2h]
Mathman1115 ???
I now have two pair, and likely the best hand. Should i bet?
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Mathman1115 bets $1
naildriver76 calls $1
BbBrwn calls $1
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mathman1115 [6d 6h 2s Qc Qs] [Jc]
Dealt to naildriver76 [Ks 9c 7h] [7d]
Dealt to BbBrwn [Kh 3s 2h] [Qh]
Mathman1115 ???
He just caught two pair now. Should i still bet? I'm certainly not worried about the other guy, he has mostly dead cards showing. If i check and Naildriver bets, do i have the right odds to call and try to hit my boat? Right now the pot is about $8, and i'll certainly win atleast 1 more BB on the river. I know i can fold if i miss. Would folding be bad if i missed?
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Mathman1115 checks
naildriver76 bets $1
BbBrwn folds
Mathman1115 calls $1
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Mathman1115 [6d 6h 2s Qc Qs Jc] [6s]
Mathman1115 ???
Should i bet and win my extra BB, or check raise here to get two BB? He does have 1 live K and two live 7s left, so he could hit too, , but i'll be winning two bets here way more then i'll be losing three, and even if he hits the 7 he may not 3 bet.
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Mathman1115 checks
naildriver76 bets $1
Mathman1115 raises to $2
naildriver76 calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mathman1115 shows [6s 6h 2s Qc Qs Jc 6d] a full house, Sixes full of Queens
naildriver76 shows [Kd Jh Ks 9c 7h 7d Th] two pair, Kings and Sevens
Mathman1115 wins the pot ($12.80) with a full house, Sixes full of Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13.30 | Rake $0.50
Seat 1: Zophar folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: Mathman1115 showed [6s 6h 2s Qc Qs Jc 6d] and won ($12.80) with a full house, Sixes full of Queens
Seat 3: naildriver76 showed [Kd Jh Ks 9c 7h 7d Th] and lost with two pair, Kings and Sevens
Seat 4: legend29 folded on 4th St.
Seat 5: Docdiesel folded on 3rd St.
Seat 6: BbBrwn folded on 6th St.
Seat 7: qamman folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: NedRierson folded on 3rd St.
Overall, i'm not sure if i did well here or not. What do you guys think of the river check raise in general (heads up)? I normally don't do it in these situations. I like to do it when i hit a boat and i KNOW my opponent is going to bet his str8, flush, or smaller boat, and its a good way to pick up an extra BB on the river. Many times if i just bet out with a pair on my board, players will just call with these types of hands. |
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Christopher50
Full House
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Somewhere in The Southern Hemisphere
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not a Stud player, but I know how it works...
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| My 6s are live, i'm already in for the bring in, and there are 3 others in. Should i complete this? |
Just like you said, you already in the pot and have a pair in the hole, i'd complete this.
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| The K is still betting, but one is out, and i caught a live Q. My call would close the betting, and the pot is growing. Should i call? |
I would've called, but hesitantly, as I would be praying for a pair, with the flush possibility very slim for me.
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| I now have two pair, and likely the best hand. Should i bet? |
Check. You can be almost certain that naildriver is going to bet it here like he has every street before.
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| He just caught two pair now. Should i still bet? I'm certainly not worried about the other guy, he has mostly dead cards showing. If i check and Naildriver bets, do i have the right odds to call and try to hit my boat? Right now the pot is about $8, and i'll certainly win atleast 1 more BB on the river. I know i can fold if i miss. Would folding be bad if i missed? |
Once again I would check, he has a pair showing, and he bet every street showing the King, so like you have said, you could put him on 2 pair, and with him betting 1 pair, I doubt he is going to check 2 pair.
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| Should i bet and win my extra BB, or check raise here to get two BB? He does have 1 live K and two live 7s left, so he could hit too, , but i'll be winning two bets here way more then i'll be losing three, and even if he hits the 7 he may not 3 bet. |
Check raising would be your best option, Not knowing how he plays, would he really bet every street and check the last one? Possibly if he has squat and is trying to take down the hand, but with you Queens showing that is probably unlikely, so I think it is safe to assume he has a real hand, and he would bet it.
That is just what I would do, I'm not a stud player myself but maybe someone with more experience in Stud could give there two cents.
I'd be interested in finding out from a Stud player if this was a good play? |
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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2212
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| as i went through the hand, all my thinking correlated directly to how you played the hand. your sixes are live on 3rd and you're last to complete. 4th you catch a Q, which is also live and you have to take one more card off for the 6. 5th you catch two pair, i like the lead simply because i don't like getting fancy with a pair on the board. you'll also be missing a bet here if you don't since is likely that no one would bet into your board at this point. sixth i like the check call. i like the check-raise on 7th, only because your opponent bet on 6th street. if they had both checked on 6th, obviously a check would get you no value on 7th unless they hit a hand. he believes he's still in the lead here and that you're going to be the one paying him off. i like the check raise in that hand. i would have played the hand exactly how you did. |
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Strasse
Forum ***
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 6274
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| byamamoto1 wrote: |
| as i went through the hand, all my thinking correlated directly to how you played the hand. your sixes are live on 3rd and you're last to complete. 4th you catch a Q, which is also live and you have to take one more card off for the 6. 5th you catch two pair, i like the lead simply because i don't like getting fancy with a pair on the board. you'll also be missing a bet here if you don't since is likely that no one would bet into your board at this point. sixth i like the check call. i like the check-raise on 7th, only because your opponent bet on 6th street. if they had both checked on 6th, obviously a check would get you no value on 7th unless they hit a hand. he believes he's still in the lead here and that you're going to be the one paying him off. i like the check raise in that hand. i would have played the hand exactly how you did. |
+1. I would have played it exactly how you did. |
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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 3389
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Ok, thx for the feedback. I thought i played ok, although i felt like a chaser. My big problem in stud is knowing the odds to chase. For example, i'm one of those players who if i start with a 4 flush, i'm going to the river no matter what. Same with the OESD, so long as someone isn't boarding 3 or 4 of a suit or trips.
Some "what if" questions:
In this hand, my 6s were live and buried. Obviously they both need to be live to continue. Does the fact that they're buried make them stronger? What if they were split here? Am I calling 3rd in a multiway pot (i won't be bringing in in this case). Does my position with relation to the bring in affect this decision. Do i call 4th?
Let's say on 5th i don't pair my Queen. Do i fold now to a bet, or is it still profitable to chase my live 6s or two pair that may not be good by the river in a multiway pot? |
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Christopher50
Full House
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Somewhere in The Southern Hemisphere
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| In this hand, my 6s were live and buried. Obviously they both need to be live to continue. Does the fact that they're buried make them stronger? What if they were split here? |
Interesting...I don't think it matters whether they are in the hole or split. even if one six is showing to the table, there is no way of knowing that you have another 6 in the hole.
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| Let's say on 5th i don't pair my Queen. Do i fold now to a bet, or is it still profitable to chase my live 6s or two pair that may not be good by the river in a multiway pot? |
Yes, if you didn't pair your Q on 5th Street then it would be wise to fold, not knowing that you would finish with another 6 to make a boat.
Profitable? id say no! You can see him betting every street, with the King showing, you said yourself that he would have to have a King in the whole, so on 5th Street if you didn't hit the Queen you would be drawing to not alot of hands.
Even if you did call 5th, he hit a 7 on 6th Street which gave him 2 pair, and even if he didn't have a King in the hole, he had you covered. |
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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2212
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| mathman1115 wrote: |
Ok, thx for the feedback. I thought i played ok, although i felt like a chaser. My big problem in stud is knowing the odds to chase. For example, i'm one of those players who if i start with a 4 flush, i'm going to the river no matter what. Same with the OESD, so long as someone isn't boarding 3 or 4 of a suit or trips.
Some "what if" questions:
In this hand, my 6s were live and buried. Obviously they both need to be live to continue. Does the fact that they're buried make them stronger? What if they were split here? Am I calling 3rd in a multiway pot (i won't be bringing in in this case). Does my position with relation to the bring in affect this decision. Do i call 4th?
Let's say on 5th i don't pair my Queen. Do i fold now to a bet, or is it still profitable to chase my live 6s or two pair that may not be good by the river in a multiway pot? |
well a buried pair is much stronger in the sense that you'll be able to get paid off more so than a split pair. say in this example you have (62)6. you then pair your 6 on 4th street giving you (62)66. how much value do you think you can get out of this hand against semi-aware players? versus say you had your original hand (66)2 and hit a 6 on 4th. you hand looks much weaker and much less threatening than a paired board. i believe generally in a multi-way pot, its usually correct to call with a wired pair, especially for minimal bets, until 5th, when the bets increase. the reason being is that if you hit your hand, you're likely to get paid off well, from a disguised board.
if you don't hit your second queen on 5th, usually i don't believe its correct to continue. the reason being is that simply you have less cards to improve your hand. even if you should hit another pair, its not likely to be good as you have under cards to a more than likely overpair with the kings. you don't just want your cards to be live, but you want over cards to possibly catch higher than your opponents. |
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Strasse
Forum ***
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 6274
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| If you have 662, its better for the 6s to be buried. This way if you catch a 2, your hand looks more threatening than it is, getting people to fold when it may be correct for them to call against a small two pair. If you catch a 6, they will most likely be calling when it is correct to fold, since they don't know you have trips. With 66A, it maybe be better for your pair to be split. This way you have 3 cards(the aces) to catch to give you a very strong hidden hand, instead of only two if the 6s were buried. |
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