Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

Zophar · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: What do you do?

An intersting situation arose in this hand. Just curious what some of you would do and why on each level. I'll post them over time.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3108018269: $4,000 Guarantee (23215341), Table 12 - 120/240 - Limit Omaha H/L - 23:23:29 ET - 2007/07/30
Seat 1: lastchancedavid (581)
Seat 2: Zophar (1,113)
Seat 3: cheesex (1,820)awful-donkbets galoe
Seat 4: Abso11 (3,145) Super weak/weak
Seat 5: PoketQueens90 (1,828)
Seat 6: Rick_Cee (1,385)
Seat 7: ROCKYBOYY (5,076)fairly solid
Seat 8: MINT72 (3,953)
Zophar posts the small blind of 60
cheesex posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Zophar [Ts Qh Js Th]
Abso11 has 15 seconds left to act
Abso11 calls 120
PoketQueens90 folds
Rick_Cee calls 120
ROCKYBOYY calls 120
MINT72 folds
lastchancedavid calls 120
Zophar calls 60< I"m thinking alot of lows are out, not a great hand, but sveral flush/straight and set possibilities
cheesex raises to 240<the biggest fish at the table raises in the BB. His range is endless, more than likely has a 6 pt hand(suited ace or a couple of A lows)
Abso11 calls 120
Rick_Cee calls 120
ROCKYBOYY calls 120
lastchancedavid calls 120
Zophar calls 120
*** FLOP *** [5s 7h Jc]
Zophar checks
cheesex bets 120
Abso11 calls 120
Rick_Cee calls 120
ROCKYBOYY calls 120
lastchancedavid calls 120
Zophar ?

Have top pair, draw to back door flush/straight draws and possible set. It's a big pot, continue?

Honest_Rob · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:01 am Post subject:

I'm probably showing my O8 ignorance but I'd usually fold this preflop. I don't play too many hands that can't make a low at a full table. I'd probably fold on the flop also. Lots of money in the pot but what can you really hope to hit to win the high. With two to a low already on the board you're drawing slim for half the pot unless the turn and river are both high cards. Even then you're really only looking for runner straight/flush or a T or J to have a shot at it.

Flying_Kiwi · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:04 am Post subject:

I'd call and re-evaluate on the turn. At least one, probably two of the callers are on low draws and you've still got a reasonable shot at drawing to the high.

Strasse · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject:

This hand is definately worth a call PF. Your hand works well w/ itself, and if it makes a good high, it has a nice chance to be the nuts. This would also mean there most likely won't be a low. OTF, however, I would fold this. Your backdoor flush draw isn't to the nuts, and if you hit your backdoor straigh to the ace, there will be a low, so you will only win half the pot. There are only two cards that you are going to feel comfortable hitting on the turn, the queen and the ten, and even if you hit one of them, there is a good chance someone will draw out by the river.

cubbies760 · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:

I'd have to see the turn for 120 into a 2040 pot.

A T, J, or Q, your quite possibly leading...and a heart or spade gives you a FD (although it might lose you chips if it's not high enough).

I'd be calling this bet looking more for the set/2 pr, or the As or Ah.

GripHoldOn · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject:

I like the call preflop with a great high hand only. With so many players in, taking half the pot is a nice profit.

This flop completely misses us. We have no cards that we'd love to see on the turn. It's almost impossible that we're currently best, it's incredibly likely that someone has 89 to kill our two tens, and it's highly likely that someone has the Ah or Kh with another heart with it.
And there's a high chance that, even if we do miraculously end up with the best high hand, that we only end up with half.

On the other hand, we're getting almost 20 to 1! I'm not sure what the correct play is here. Running tens would be nice.

Zophar · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject:

I decided to call. The pot was so dam big that I felt the pot odds were there to peel a card. I'm looking for a K or Q here ideally.

Zophar calls 120
*** TURN *** [5s 7h Jc] [7c]
Zophar checks
cheesex bets 240<hesitates before betting
Abso11 calls 240<hesitates before calling
Rick_Cee folds
ROCKYBOYY folds
lastchancedavid has 15 seconds left to act
lastchancedavid folds
Zophar ?

cubbies760 · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject:

nomally, insta-fold, but with your notes.....insta-raise. I think the pot is worth the shot seeing that there isn't a low yet. You can represent the 7 and the entire pot is yours is no low comes OTR.

After giving this some thought, it is quite possible that you are actually leading, now.

GripHoldOn · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject:

yup, interesting situation has arisen. Very rare to see this much weakness after six players go all the way to the turn. Again, I'm not sure what to do; I could see an argument for any of the three options. I don't think I like folding at this point. With as much money as is in the pot, I'd probably play this hand through, and hope that they're both on low hands.

Strasse · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject:

Zophar · Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:07 am Post subject:

A little background because it was an extremely strange game up to this point. Play had been horrible at best. After a roller coaster ride up to that point and nearing the bottom of chip counts,the tournament had started to wear on me.

As I stated before, the raiser(BB) was AWFUL. I witnessed him bet a bare K to 6th street in stud in a 3 way hand. He would raise generally most hands and continuation bet till the end, even when it was obvious.

UTG was just as horrible. Called down w/some awful hands in basically every game. Twice witnessed him backdoor a low that was chased, once w/an A3 and once w/A4. Several other bare 3rd and 4th best lows were called down as well as top pair for high. He wouldn't raise any low draws, but would raise 2pr+.

In the time between my checking and the action getting back around to me, I had decided because of the pot that was building, that I was strictly going to go by the math. Between the primarily low board and the calls to that specific board, I was thinking that the deck was likely more high heavy, for my favor on top of the numbers.

Strasse · Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject:

Well, if they are as bad as you say they are, then that means it is even more likely that they have a 7, since bad players like to play hands w/ 6's,7s, and 8's, despte the fact that these are some of the worst cards in omaha8.

Zophar · Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject:

I was getting better than 10 to1 odds to draw to what I felt were 4 outs and feeling pretty much pot commited, so I called the turn. I was still a little conflicted, so I wanted to leave myself with a chip just in case. I had a full round to pick up a hand and push if need be. Their earlier play added to my read that they weren't strong. UTG would've raised a 7,no question.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3108018269: $4,000 Guarantee (23215341), Table 12 - 120/240 - Limit Omaha H/L - 23:23:29 ET - 2007/07/30
Seat 1: lastchancedavid (581)
Seat 2: Zophar (1,113)
Seat 3: cheesex (1,820)
Seat 4: Abso11 (3,145)
Seat 5: PoketQueens90 (1,828)
Seat 6: Rick_Cee (1,385)
Seat 7: ROCKYBOYY (5,076)
Seat 8: MINT72 (3,953)
Zophar posts the small blind of 60
cheesex posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Zophar [Ts Qh Js Th]
Abso11 has 15 seconds left to act
Abso11 calls 120
PoketQueens90 folds
Rick_Cee calls 120
ROCKYBOYY calls 120
MINT72 folds
lastchancedavid calls 120
Zophar calls 60
cheesex raises to 240
Abso11 calls 120
Rick_Cee calls 120
ROCKYBOYY calls 120
lastchancedavid calls 120
Zophar calls 120
*** FLOP *** [5s 7h Jc]
Zophar checks
cheesex bets 120
Abso11 calls 120
Rick_Cee calls 120
ROCKYBOYY calls 120
lastchancedavid calls 120
Zophar calls 120
*** TURN *** [5s 7h Jc] [7c]
Zophar checks
cheesex bets 240
Abso11 calls 240
Rick_Cee folds
ROCKYBOYY folds
lastchancedavid has 15 seconds left to act
lastchancedavid folds
Zophar calls 240
*** RIVER *** [5s 7h Jc 7c] [7s]
Zophar checks
cheesex bets 240
Abso11 has 15 seconds left to act
Abso11 calls 240
Zophar calls 240

I hated the river, sort of. I had to call regardless, and felt confident in my read about no 7 being played. The river helped reduce it's likelyhood. My only real concern was whether the BB had KK at that point. With the number of players seeing the flop, a pair of Aces was much less likely in play. The results are below in white.

*** SHOW DOWN ***
cheesex shows [Ac 2s Jh Ks] three of a kind, Sevens, for high
Abso11 mucks
Zophar shows [Ts Qh Js Th] a full house, Sevens full of Tens, for high
Zophar wins the pot (3,600) with a full house, Sevens full of Tens
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,600 | Rake 0
Board: [5s 7h Jc 7c 7s]
Seat 1: lastchancedavid (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Zophar (small blind) showed [Ts Qh Js Th] and won (3,600) with HI: a full house, Sevens full of Tens
Seat 3: cheesex (big blind) showed [Ac 2s Jh Ks] and lost with HI: three of a kind, Sevens<read was accurate
Seat 4: Abso11 mucked [Kd 4c 5c 3c] - HI: three of a kind, Sevens<-Read was dead on
Seat 5: PoketQueens90 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Rick_Cee folded on the Turn
Seat 7: ROCKYBOYY folded on the Turn
Seat 8: MINT72 didn't bet (folded)

Strasse · Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject:

Personally, I think you played the hand horribly after the flop. You were behind the whole time to the AJ, drawing to 5 outs. Your backdoor spade draw was no good. If any low cards hits, you are DRAWING to half the pot. On the turn, you are drawing to 6 outs, since the Qc gives the K345 the flush. Even if you hit your Q or T on the turn, the 6 takes the pot back, and if you hit your Q, the K, T, or A takes the pot back. If you are going to play hi only hands in O8(which I think you should do), you MUST know when to lay them down after the flop. One pair is not enough to keep you in the hand.

DJ Ninjah · Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:03 am Post subject:

I'm liking the surge in interest in O/8. Maybe there should be a forum tournament sometime soon Very Happy

.

PF: I'm calling this all day. I LOVE high only hands in O/8 (and much, much more so in PLO/8) because there are so many bad players chasing lows and other draws that they really do become some of the most profitable hands to play. Your position and chip stack isn't the greatest, but it's no reason to not play the hand with so much money in the pot.

Flop: Insta-fold. I don't know how hard I can stress that your hand is no good here. As stated, your back door flush draws aren't to the nuts, neither are all your straight draws. In fact, if everyone is as bad as you say, I'd be shocked if you had better than 8% equity in this pot, and you are barely getting that to call. On top of that, you don't really have the chips to piss away into this pot chasing backdoor draws. If you call here, you will have only 753 chips left. Plus, to top it off, you are at a wild table, and will probably need a stack that can withstand some variance to get anywhere. Really the only real argument I can make for calling the flop is you deemed yourself pot committed and felt like you needed to gamble right here and take a long shot at scooping a large pot, because folding means you are pretty much out anyway. But I think this is one of those situations where survival > marginal pot odds.

Turn: After putting over 1/3 of a tiny stack in already, do you really mean to tell you are gonna fold even if Abso raises? You are already pursuing a long shot, go for the two outer!!!!

River: Technically speaking that was a miracle river. Seriously. You might as well raise. Either you are gonna be so crippled the gimp standing in front of the short bus would point and laugh, or you are going to win this pot. Figuring any raise you put in at this point is sure to be called, you might as well try and get an extra 480 in profit here.

Lastly, I'm not too sure your read on cheesex was accurate. He actually had a decent hand, one that really cramps your hand. Pretty ballsy of him to bet the 7 OTT, but there is really no more reason to assume he has air here than to assume he actually has a hand. It seems to me that the key problem was you called most of the way down, putting too much weight on the fact your hand might actually be in the lead here. IMO you committed the cardinal sin of playing high only hands in O/8, chasing a flop with two low cards, one pair, only a Q kicker, and 0 straight or flush draws.

Here's the real question I have for you; after luckboxing all those chips, did you at least put them to good use and cash? Smile

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