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fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: What do we do here...

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) from (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K

, K

.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J

, 9

, 6

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 raises, Hero ???

Your move....

Results and (my opinion of) the best way to play this hand to follow soon.

monnot · Straight Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 101

Even tho they love the J9 I say 3bet. The first bettor could easily have AJ-J8 and bet his top pair or bet his draw. Player two could have a similar hand, but if I were him I would also raise with a flush draw. If you raise and they both just call your good right now, but if you get 4bets they probally have two pair, a set or something like an open ended straight and flush draw.

mathman1115 · Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:44 am Post subject:

I'm definitely 3-betting here. I can easily see both the bettor and the raiser on the flop having hands like AJ, KJ, QJ, TJ, maybe suited and maybe suited in hearts. I also think the bettor and/or raiser think you may have missed this flop with a hand like AK or AQ, and they want you to go away (or get info). A 3-bet will (likely and hopefully) put you in position for the rest of the hand by making the other yet to act fold. If anyone caps i might get concerned, and i would then play accordingly

mathman1115 · Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:53 am Post subject:

BUMP.

soooo........?????

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:

I can't find the original hand, but the action went as follows:

I folded on the flop.

Turn was Ks (Oh the irony)

River was 2c (I think, but definitely a complete blank for draws)

MP1 showed JhTh to take down the pot. Can't remember what UTG+2 had.

So sadly I was ahead at the time, and maybe should have 3-bet it, but I'm actually pretty happy with a fold there. UTG+2 and MP1 both limped so a set is very possible for both, as is J9. I figured one of them might have a flush draw, and one may have as little as top pair, but a set was really what I was expecting and I just wasn't getting the odds to play along.

I have another 2 players to act after me, one of whom cold called 2 bets preflop, which people love to do with JT and small pairs. Either way, I figured I was either a huge dog, or a 50/50 for my current hand to hold up if ahead and I didnt think the pot was big enough to force me in in terms of pot equity terms

After my disastrous June (-$900) I made 2 fairly major alterations to my game, I stopped calling down so often in multiway big pots, and I cut down the number of hands I played from EP. I'm currently $1100 up for July, so I think things are looking up, possibly thanks to the whole folding big hands in big multiway pots.

honkythunder · Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject:

OK - I still haven't read your post where you discus the hand further...

I say raise again - and consider putting some smack talk in the chat box as well.

T_Rumble · Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:34 am Post subject:

I'm confused as to what the small talk will accomplish. As a general rule, unless I'm friendly with someone, or I have something of a grudge match against someone, I stay away from the chat.

This is a very easy three bet or if you want to get tricky (and I might actually lean towards tricky) a check raise on the turn to get some extra big bets into the pot. If the guy has outflopped you he's not going to be raising on the flop because the board isn't coordinated enough for him to want to protect his hand. He may (and I mean maybe) raising for a free flush card on the turn, but I really doubt it at this limit.

Folding here is extremely weak tight. If anyone thinks they can put him on J9 just by him raising the flop then they're full of crap.

You have the second best starting hand that will win the majority of the time at showdown. Unless you have a super sick read on the guy, I'm jamming this pot every time and only slowing down when he pops me for four bets and even then I'll generally show down because the pot has now gotten to big to fold.

Hope this helps.....T_Rumble

Honest_Rob · Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:31 am Post subject:

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:19 am Post subject:

monnot · Straight Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 101

No other choice than 3bet. I don't like waiting for the turn to check raise, because we could be behind or be against a good draw. But the fold is way to weak tight, 3 under cards is what you want on a flop with a pp. Even thought a set is definetly not out of question I think putting them solely on that is kinda nitty.

T_Rumble · Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject:

Are you saying that because there is some potential for him to suck out on you that you'd rather fold now and not take the risk of POSSIBLY loosing the pot? If thats the case then you are playing more weak tight than I expected.

The only made hands you have to worry about right now are two pair and a set and there is no way you can know if you up against either one of them just by one raise on the flop.

At this present moment in the hand there are no flushes and no straights to be made. A coordinated board to me is one that after the flop can make a straight or a flush. This is a semicoordinated board and with KK and only one raise by a guy in position I'm not worried about being beat yet.

You have a hand that will win more than 50% at showdown, so go to the showdown. You are going to lose with this hand at times, I agree, but the skill in poker comes from knowing when you need to slow down or keep jamming the pot.

Hope this helps....T_Rumble

christophelp · High Card Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 3

I think this is a call and look to raise the turn if it is safe.

The likelihood is that you still have the best hand but that UTG+2 & MP1 probably have at best (for you) between them a combination of TP and flush draw (and they quite possibly have some kind of straight draw as well).

As you have already pointed out, there are a lot of turn cards that devalue your hand (any heart, Q, J, T, 9, 8, 7, 5 (BP is unlikely)). This is the reason I would wait until the turn to raise and not the flop.

Folding is clearly wrong though, even with two players still to act behind you (one of whom is the BB) who could have called pre-flop with ATC.

Up against TP, flush draw and OESD (say JhTh & 8c7c) you have pot equity - you will win more than a third of the time (but only just). Therefore, folding here is a -EV play. You are getting better than 6 to 1 to just call, so you cannot fold (yet), as you cannot deduce from a bet and raise that your overpair is beaten. You lose a slight edge on the flop by not raising but if the turn is helpful to you, your pot equity increases significantly and you can raise to take advantage of this.

Raising is (the only other and not a bad) option - this protects your hand against MP3 and BB if they have weakish draws. It may also give you information on UTG+2 and MP1 hands, (although with TP & flush draw, MP1 would not be wrong to cap).

You cannot deduce a set/two pair on such a coordinated board after a bet and raise. Your opponents don't know you have KK - you could have any two high cards. This is a flop which drawing hands like but they are unlikely to have drawn out on you already! Also, with 4 callers to your pre-flop raise, this pot is close to being big enough not to fold already. Only if you know you are behind should you fold here and you cannot know that by the time you have to act. Smile

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