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Wahooka · Two Pair Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 69

Hey folks,

I play on-line, mostly no-limit games,, I made my first trip to a casino recently and played a $2-4 limit game and lost $150 in about 10 hours... it was a very difficult experience for me, I felt out-matched and didn't really know what to do much of the time... a few questions:

1. I lost a ton of money with AK, AA,KK, and AQ... I played my top pair very aggressively and usually ended up getting beat by a set or two pair every time... should I stop being aggressive with these types of hands, or just fold it almost every time I'm raised after the flop?

2. I tried to use a lot of deception, check-raising, slow-playing QQ in the big blind, semi-bluffing, the types of plays I would do in no-limit. Are these plays worthwhile in a low limit game?

3. During one session, I played for 2 hours, won 5 hands, and was still down about $40... does this mean I'm playing too many hands, or that I have a negative expectation and should avoid these games?

4. Do you think the players at a casino are better then on-line players? How much money do you have to lose before you have enough experience to compete with these guys? A lot of these guys were chip shuffling, had good poker faces, and seemed like regulars...

Thanks for the advice,

Wahooka

Big Slick x13x · Forum Icon Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 4125 Location: ROK

monnot · Straight Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 101

I was there not to long ago. I just went to the casino for the first time about 4months ago when I turned 18 and played the 2/4 games. I lost a lot at the begining but now am showing a good profit and playing higher games

You can do the same by adapting. You first need to realize that the people at those tables suck. Don't try anything fancy with 2/4 players, half of them can't tell when the big blind is on them. Play straight up and bet your good hands, you will always get callers.

You are probally playing too many hands, or not the right ones. KJ type hands are trouble and should be mucked in early-mid position. Suited connectors are going to be better for you than QT K9 KJ type hands.

Keep going as long as your not losing too much money, as Griffin told me you will soon get a feel for what type of boards you can win with a bet and which boards will get you called down with.
Also winning big at small stakes holdem is a good book to read.

JaketheStake · Straight Flush Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 415

One reason I really enjoy playing limit is because people do not adjust their game. Almost everyone in the free world knows more about NL hold 'em than they do any other poker game, but they just don't make the mental adjustment when they're playing Limit or even PL. People end up playing with huge gaps in their game, which is exploitable.

BigSlick touched on it some in his post, but it's NOT no limit. Trapping plays and such do not work nearly as well in limit. Pocket pairs do not rule the day. Drawing hands have a lot of power, especially when everybody and their brother may be getting odds to chase. The number one complaint I hear from No Limit players after they get their a$$ handed to them in a limit game is about all the "suckouts and call-stations that just kept getting lucky". Their opponents weren't getting lucky, they were just playing better for the game they were in.

If you're looking for a starting point, there's a good, basic Limit section in Super System 2.

~Jake

renegades8

Wahooka wrote:

Hey folks,

I play on-line, mostly no-limit games,, I made my first trip to a casino recently and played a $2-4 limit game and lost $150 in about 10 hours... it was a very difficult experience for me, I felt out-matched and didn't really know what to do much of the time... a few questions:

First off, it seems like you have no experience in limit hold'em, so why would you want to play $2-4 for 10 hours? I'd recommend reading some books, reading some hand analasis in the forum, and getting some experience online first (for lower stakes, and you aren't as intimidated online).

1. I lost a ton of money with AK, AA,KK, and AQ... I played my top pair very aggressively and usually ended up getting beat by a set or two pair every time... should I stop being aggressive with these types of hands, or just fold it almost every time I'm raised after the flop?

In limit, it's hard to fold top pair or an over pair just becuase you've got raised. I guess it depends how often they are calling/raising on flops. If they are constantly calling/raising when you have top pair, then keep doing it because they won't hit those hands all of the time. But, if they are playing tight and rarely raise you, then when you get raised you can probably realize you don't have the best hand. Keep in mind that it's only a pair.

2. I tried to use a lot of deception, check-raising, slow-playing QQ in the big blind, semi-bluffing, the types of plays I would do in no-limit. Are these plays worthwhile in a low limit game?

IMO, getting fancy doesn't work nearly as much in limit. It's much harder to extract lots of your opponents chips by slowplaying hands in limit, you should just keep betting. Keep in mind when you go for a check raise in limit, they realize that a raise means a lot more than a bet, and will often fold, losing only 1 BB, which doesn't make it worth the check raise. After a check-raise, most of the time they will only stay in with a better hand than yours. Also, in limit alot more players tend to see flops. With hands like QQ you want to get as little opponents as possible (1 or 2) so that people don't catch flushes, straights, sets, etc.

3. During one session, I played for 2 hours, won 5 hands, and was still down about $40... does this mean I'm playing too many hands, or that I have a negative expectation and should avoid these games?

It depends. First, 5 hands isn't that many. Second, it's only a 2 hour session and it's hard to tell. You could be getting lots of cards and playing too tight, or you could be getting crappy cards and playing too loose. Third, I guess it depends on what kind of player you are. Some players win by playing very loose and some win by playing very tight.

4. Do you think the players at a casino are better then on-line players? How much money do you have to lose before you have enough experience to compete with these guys? A lot of these guys were chip shuffling, had good poker faces, and seemed like regulars...

I'd say in relationship to the stakes, online players are better. If you compared $1/$2 online players to $1/$2 live players, the online players would be better IMO. This is because online those are higher up limits, and live those are the lowest limits. Also, online the players are there to specifically play poker. They would also have to take the time to download the software, deposit money etc, showing they are wanting to play poker. At a casino, they might have just happened to pass by the poker tables and been interested to play, and it's not such a hassle to play at a casino.

Thanks for the advice,

Wahooka

griffinlord · Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

For the kind of game you are playing try:

Wining Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones. You should be able to buy it for less than $20 online and it is well worth the price for the beginning limit player.

Once you start to have some confidence [i]Small Stakes Holdem[i] by Miller et al will give you what you need to sharpen up your game and start to move up to 3/6 to 5/10. After that, well, I don't after that. There are a bunch of books out there.

Wahooka · Two Pair Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 69

JaketheStake · Straight Flush Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 415

If you have SS2, which almost everyone does, I'd crack it open and read the section on Limit again. It's pretty basic, but effective. My guess is over-playing those big hands is what got you in trouble, and now knowing when to stop over-calling in marginal positions.

Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. It's impossible for me to critique a game I never saw, and I wouldn't presume to do so even if I had seen it. I'm not that good! (Yet! Wink

)

All in all, I'm a much more winning player at limit than I am at NL. Since the variance is less, I'm less penalized for 1-2 bad moves and all my good moves just keep stacking up. It doesn't offer the big upward swings that NL can, but the more steady, solid upward creep can be very nice when you're playing well.

~Jake

AllInDrawinDead · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject:

I really doubt that you are outclassed against a table of $2/$4 limit players. These are some of the biggest donkeys in the poker world. They are the bottom of the food chain. Having said that, you will still lose to them. I try to see a lot of flops with speculating hands in multiway pots where I can get in for a small bet. If you flop a big hand or a big draw you will be glad you stayed in. Play your big pairs aggressive preflop. Bet out or raise if the board is favorable for your hand but be careful if the calling station donkey suddenly check raises you on the turn. Odds are he made an ugly two pair or trips or something that beats you.

Wahooka · Two Pair Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 69

Yes, it is true that I basically played my big pair for a few too many bets, but nothing serious. For instance, I would check and call the river usually... so I suppose I could save myself a lot of river bets and just fold, but I am really haunted by the time I folded AA and lost a $100 pot,...

I'm not convinced I was up against all donkeys... I was playing at an Indian Reservation, and nobody there appeared to be a tourist... I get a sense for how serious the players are, and they really seemed clued in... a lot of solid bluffs, good folds, and standard strategy.. it just takes one donkey to crack a big pair though..

I picked up a copy of SS2, I hope it is better then Lee Jones book...

Wahooka

griffinlord · Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject:

How many hands did you play? In a loose low limit game your swings are going to be huge and you really need to play thousands to know if you are winning or not.

Remember that a hand like pocket aces is an 80% winner heads up. But against 5 players it is roughly a coin toss. The good news is that even as your probability of winning the hand is going down your EV per bet is going up. You'll win fewer pots but those pots will be bigger.

More importantly you have to learn how to play post-flop poker. You talked about playing the starting hands Lee suggested (which aren't going to be much different than SS2) but did you play the post-flop strategy he recommends??

Unless 2/4 is the "big game" where you play you are likely imagining that you are being outplayed. Low limit players love to chase and play hands in odd and unpredictable ways. This makes the game highly unpredictable and it often seems as if they know exactly what you have.

I've sat next to SS2 players at a 2/4 table....all they do is lose money and mumble about "people not respecting their raises." Big stakes strategy depends on you opponents being aware that you are telling them something with your bets/raises....but it is rare to find such a person at the 2/4 tables.

If you insist on not liking Jones then try Small Stakes Holdem by Miller et al. This one is the bible of the small stakes limit players. But be warned...if you don't learn the post-flop strategy and only focus on starting hands you will go broke.

Wahooka · Two Pair Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 69

Well i played for about 10 hours in total, and I pretty much was never ahead. Even when I would win a few hands, an hour later I would be down on chips,.. I wouldn't say I played 1000 hands though, but it seemed like I was swimming against the current. during that session..

Lee Jones post-flop strategy is just completely self-evident and standard... If you hit the flop with a top pair or better, bet and raise, if you missed the flop or got 2nd pair, fold.. the best piece of advice he gives is not to chase when you might be drawing dead. Other then that, I'm not sure what is so special about his post-flop suggestions...

Can you explain the thing you said about EV going up, I don't really understand that...

Wahooka

griffinlord · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject:

mathman1115

David Petina · Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:26 am Post subject:

To answer griffinlord's question

A-A shouldn't cap betting on the turn and really not even on the flop. K-Q-9 with that many callers, means that J-10 suited is a reasonable starting hand. It is a low limit casino game, so a 3 bet on the flop could be someone overplaying A-K, but the J-10 is a real possibility. I think if opponent 3 bets the flop in that situation, then it's time to I slow down and, at most, just call. I might call a bet on the bricked turn, but that would really depend on my read of the other player. If I called, then I pay off a bet by a straight on the river when I hit the set. Still, if he has J-10, I lose 2.5 big bets where as capping loses 9. Of course I only take 2.5 big bets from someone overplaying A-K, but that's a guy I want around because I'll get his money in the long run.

Dave

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