Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker   FAQ   Search    Register   Profile  Log in to check your private messages  Log in  Online Poker Forum - Tourny vs Cash RAZZ          Online Poker Forum Home -> Razz Author Message aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ I stole this question/response from another thread... captain c-dogg wrote: PARASOFT wrote: What do you think is the most common mistake that razz players make? 1. sitting down at a cash table with a better player than yourself 2. not looking around the table to see which of the cards you need is gone 3. not being able to disguish between cash razz and tournament razz 4. trying to read someone that calls 10s, kings, or reraises with worse cards. 5. that a pair is better than a brick. i'll take a new number over a pair anyday. 6. messing with parasoft, he's been playing razz almost 24 hours a day for the last week I'm new to Razz. Would some of you say what you see as the important differences between the two? Back to top jbrennen Straight Flush Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 422 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: My opinion on this... First, realize that a fundamental concept of all poker tournaments is that the chips that you win are almost always worth less than the chips that you lose. (The more chips you have, the less each chip is worth to you.) I won't go into the gory details here, but just as an obvious example, increasing your chip count from 1000 to 2000 does a heck of a lot more for your expected tourney payout than does raising your chip count from 4000 to 5000. In a cash Razz game, you want to push your small edges whenever possible. With a 7-low draw on 4th street, you'd usually be happy to reraise or even cap the betting against two 8-low drawing hands as long as the cards that you need are reasonably live. You raise here as a value bet, because you are better than a 1/3 probability to win the hand. You don't raise here because you expect your opponents to fold. (Although you won't mind if they do...) In tourney Razz, that 4th street reraise for value (with a hand which is a slight favorite) is usually a mistake. The extra chips that you're building into the pot aren't worth enough (in expected tourney payout) to justify the risk. For instance, say that the first hand of the tourney ends up heads up, and you're a 52% favorite to win. Your total expected tourney payout is actually better the smaller that you keep the pot. In cash Razz, I'll gladly reraise or cap if I've got just a 1% or 2% advantage; in tourney Razz, I'm looking for a 15% to 20% advantage (or even more depending on stack sizes) before I start making value reraises. That doesn't mean that raising is a mistake in tourney Razz -- but you do it for a different reason. In tourney Razz, you primarily use the raise as a tool to make opponents fold -- value raising to build a big pot is really reserved for when you have an absolute monster hand. Note that I don't suggest giving a free card if you are first to act (on 4th street or later) and if you have a decent looking board and a decent hand. You should bet out, but just realize that you are doing it primarily to try to get your opponent to fold a marginal hand, and not so much to build a pot. Back to top aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Whew - that was a great post - thanks for taking the time. Now I have to digest it. Coming from a Hold 'Em background, I notice in Razz tournys, at the beginning, a lot of rammin/jammin holdem strategy - if you can call it strategy - and waiting them out makes sense. I also notice a lot of Razz players do sit out - I once played the first 40 minutesd against the same two players while the other five players say out. But I also notice I experience more variance in Razz - I've never played cash Razz - this will be interesting..... Back to top captain c-dogg High Card Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Posts: 10 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ [quote="aMurderofCrows"]I stole this question/response from another thread... captain c-dogg wrote: PARASOFT wrote: What do you think is the most common mistake that razz players make? 3. not being able to disguish between cash razz and tournament razz I'm new to Razz. Would some of you say what you see as the important differences between the two? tournament games the blinds also vary, cash tables it will be standard ante/bringin/call everytime. in a tournament you can play 982 for 30 chips, but you can't play 982 for 2/4 cash right? it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. just keep yer eyes open. idiots are everywhere from $1 SNGS, to the 2K garuntee(24+2), patience is GOD in razz. thanks for readin my posts too! C-dogg Back to top captain c-dogg High Card Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Posts: 10 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ [quote="aMurderofCrows"]I stole this question/response from another thread... captain c-dogg wrote: PARASOFT wrote: What do you think is the most common mistake that razz players make? 3. not being able to disguish between cash razz and tournament razz I'm new to Razz. Would some of you say what you see as the important differences between the two? tournament games the blinds also vary, cash tables it will be standard ante/bringin/call everytime. in a tournament you can play 982 for 30 chips, but you can't play 982 for 2/4 cash right? it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. just keep yer eyes open. idiots are everywhere from $1 SNGS, to the 2K garuntee(24+2), patience is GOD in razz. thanks for readin my posts too! C-dogg Back to top captain c-dogg High Card Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Posts: 10 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ [quote="aMurderofCrows"]I stole this question/response from another thread... captain c-dogg wrote: PARASOFT wrote: What do you think is the most common mistake that razz players make? 3. not being able to disguish between cash razz and tournament razz I'm new to Razz. Would some of you say what you see as the important differences between the two? tournament games the blinds also vary, cash tables it will be standard ante/bringin/call everytime. in a tournament you can play 982 for 30 chips, but you can't play 982 for 2/4 cash right? it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. just keep yer eyes open. idiots are everywhere from $1 SNGS, to the 2K garuntee(24+2), patience is GOD in razz. thanks for readin my posts too! C-dogg Back to top PARASOFT Pair Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 42 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: jbrennen wrote: My opinion on this... First, realize that a fundamental concept of all poker tournaments is that the chips that you win are almost always worth less than the chips that you lose. (The more chips you have, the less each chip is worth to you.) I won't go into the gory details here, but just as an obvious example, increasing your chip count from 1000 to 2000 does a heck of a lot more for your expected tourney payout than does raising your chip count from 4000 to 5000. In a cash Razz game, you want to push your small edges whenever possible. With a 7-low draw on 4th street, you'd usually be happy to reraise or even cap the betting against two 8-low drawing hands as long as the cards that you need are reasonably live. You raise here as a value bet, because you are better than a 1/3 probability to win the hand. You don't raise here because you expect your opponents to fold. (Although you won't mind if they do...) In tourney Razz, that 4th street reraise for value (with a hand which is a slight favorite) is usually a mistake. The extra chips that you're building into the pot aren't worth enough (in expected tourney payout) to justify the risk. For instance, say that the first hand of the tourney ends up heads up, and you're a 52% favorite to win. Your total expected tourney payout is actually better the smaller that you keep the pot. In cash Razz, I'll gladly reraise or cap if I've got just a 1% or 2% advantage; in tourney Razz, I'm looking for a 15% to 20% advantage (or even more depending on stack sizes) before I start making value reraises. That doesn't mean that raising is a mistake in tourney Razz -- but you do it for a different reason. In tourney Razz, you primarily use the raise as a tool to make opponents fold -- value raising to build a big pot is really reserved for when you have an absolute monster hand. Note that I don't suggest giving a free card if you are first to act (on 4th street or later) and if you have a decent looking board and a decent hand. You should bet out, but just realize that you are doing it primarily to try to get your opponent to fold a marginal hand, and not so much to build a pot. Great post! Back to top sgspecial Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 135 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: I second that emotion. Kudos jb Back to top aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ captain c-dogg wrote: it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. Hey - I saw today there's a FT forum RAZZ tourny...is there s terick to registering? Love to play with some real Razz players - be an education! Ill try not to bet to violently! Back to top aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ captain c-dogg wrote: it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. Hey - I saw today there's a FT forum RAZZ tourny...is there s terick to registering? Love to play with some real Razz players - be an education! Ill try not to bet to violently! Back to top aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ captain c-dogg wrote: it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. Hey - I saw today there's a FT forum RAZZ tourny...is there s terick to registering? Love to play with some real Razz players - be an education! Ill try not to bet to violently! Back to top aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ captain c-dogg wrote: it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. Hey, I saw today there's a FT forum RAZZ tourny...is there s terick to registering? Love to play with some real Razz players - be an education! Ill try not to bet to violently! Back to top aMurderofCrows Pair Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 28 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Tourny vs Cash RAZZ captain c-dogg wrote: it seems to be same network of say 40 or so players in cash razz games, take notes on them, the people that have no idea whats goin on, will be obvious. the other guy that responded was dead on. you should bet way more violently at a cash table than a tournament, people will call things with chips they wouldn't call for cash. same with hold em. Hey - I saw today there's a FT forum RAZZ tourny...is there s terick to registering? Love to play with some real Razz players - be an education! Ill try not to bet to violently! Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         Online Poker Forum Home -> Razz All times are GMT - 4 Hours Page 1 of 1 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

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