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leighs
Four of a Kind
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 301
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 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:22 am Post subject: I know you're not supposed to fold KK preflop... |
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But I put the guy on AA so I folded it preflop for maybe the 2nd time ever. And then I would have flopped a set.
FullTiltPoker Game #282662565: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (1823468), Table 1 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:40:10 ET - 2005/11/08
Seat 1: Puppy you doggg (1,440)
Seat 2: poontang101 (980)
Seat 3: JediMyndTrik (1,830)
Seat 5: Chris285 (1,860)
Seat 6: Dohith (1,265)
Seat 7: bflower23 (1,585)
Seat 8: leighs (1,560)
Seat 9: SenorSloppy (2,980)
Chris285 posts the small blind of 25
Dohith posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to leighs [Kd Kh]
bflower23 folds
leighs raises to 150
SenorSloppy calls 150
Puppy you doggg calls 150
poontang101 folds
JediMyndTrik raises to 1,830, and is all in
Chris285 folds
Dohith folds
leighs folds
SenorSloppy folds
Puppy you doggg calls 1,290, and is all in
JediMyndTrik shows [Ad As]
Puppy you doggg shows [5d 5h]
Uncalled bet of 390 returned to JediMyndTrik
*** FLOP *** [9s Ks Jh]
*** TURN *** [9s Ks Jh] [3h]
*** RIVER *** [9s Ks Jh 3h] [8h]
JediMyndTrik shows a pair of Aces
Puppy you doggg shows a pair of Fives
JediMyndTrik wins the pot (3,255) with a pair of Aces |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| If it makes you feel any better, the cards that came would have been different had you called. |
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mikec7809
Two Pair
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| I don't know about folding KK preflop though... All the advice I've read seems to say to play them like Aces, and if you're beat you're beat. I think you'll lose money in the long run making that laydown. Unless you really know the player... |
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SKS_Poker
Full House
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: Chico, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| It was a great read. If you 100% believed that person had AA and you had KK then it was the right move regardless of what came on the flop. However, I'm amazed that you read him on that unless perhaps you put him as a rock and would only go all-in with KK and/or AA. Personally after that kind of action I would've put him on JJ, 1010, or AK suited. |
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yankhater24
Pair
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaconda, what did you mean by if he had called that the flop would have been different? |
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vorshot
Two Pair
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Random shuffle. Any time difference even by a split second would have changed the flop. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| vorshot wrote: |
| Random shuffle. Any time difference even by a split second would have changed the flop. |
Precisely. The RNG uses input such as timing and mouse movements to determine the card to come - so a different amount of time or a different motion of your mouse means a different card. |
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SKS_Poker
Full House
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: Chico, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmmm, I'm not sure about that one, as I would assume the RNG does a shuffle per HAND, not per card. Meaning the shuffle is for an entire deck of 52 cards and are then set for that particular hand as to what comes out on the flop, turn and river. |
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MRxINCREDIBLE
Pair
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 21
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| SKS_Poker wrote: |
| Hmmm, I'm not sure about that one, as I would assume the RNG does a shuffle per HAND, not per card. Meaning the shuffle is for an entire deck of 52 cards and are then set for that particular hand as to what comes out on the flop, turn and river. |
The "Officials" on here have explained a couple of times that the reason they can't do "rabbit hunting" (showing the cards that would have come if play had continued) is because "the deck" is in a constant state of shuffle. As the clock keeps ticking, the cards keep changing... so it will always be 100% random.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, knowing that, it's hard to say the software is "rigged" to produce a certain outcome (whch is probably why they do it)... but on the other.. I'm not sure I'd like it if I were playing a B&M game and I saw the dealer constantly shuffling the deck as play continued... |
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SKS_Poker
Full House
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Location: Chico, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahh I see. Thanks for letting me know that. Although I agree it's a bit disconcerting if I saw something like that in a live ring game, I can at the same time understand why they do it online to avoid someone being able to create some kind of software or spyware to be able to hunt down the next card to come somehow. I doubt it would be very easy to do in the first place, but if it is possible, then the constant shuffle would help to stop such an occurence. Not to mention the "true randomness" of the cards and number generation. |
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DaPokerNutz
Pair
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: Random vs static decks |
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Will someone with mathematical expertise explian how a static deck that is shuffled ONCE prior to a hand can be anywhere similar to a RNG deck that deals a card from anywhere in the deck when the player clicks a button. That is EXACTLY like a SLOT MACHINE or VIDEO POKER, which is TOTAL GAMBLING, very little skill required. A support rep at PokerRoom said they do this to prevent hackers from "reading the decks" and knowing the order of cards. I find that excuse to be quite laughable. Is it even possible to predict the order of cards even if you knew what all players had been dealt? I HIGHLY doubt it.
I've constantly lost on this site and PokerRoom over the last 5-6 months. Prior to trying real money, my "play money" bankroll had grown on both sites for about 9-12 months despite the occasional swings. Yea, I know, the caliber of player at .10/.25 NL or .50/1 LH games is vastly superior to play money....give me a break! I also do fairly well in some bar poker tourneys where I average about 4th place in final table finishes and at the local B&M casino. Not sure if I'm up overall, but I do win decent amounts on a regular basis. The real money online games just have a vacuum hose attached to my funds and won't let go.  Somone is sucking out on me so often, the least they could do is pay some bad beat bonuses or earn credits towards merchandise. My trust in online poker is reaching an all-time low and I'm just glad our local casino is expanding their B&M to about 30 tables in March.
DPN |
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UrbanMeyer1
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 720
Location: Gainesville, FL (The Swamp)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Random vs static decks |
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| DaPokerNutz wrote: |
Will someone with mathematical expertise explian how a static deck that is shuffled ONCE prior to a hand can be anywhere similar to a RNG deck that deals a card from anywhere in the deck when the player clicks a button. That is EXACTLY like a SLOT MACHINE or VIDEO POKER, which is TOTAL GAMBLING, very little skill required. A support rep at PokerRoom said they do this to prevent hackers from "reading the decks" and knowing the order of cards. I find that excuse to be quite laughable. Is it even possible to predict the order of cards even if you knew what all players had been dealt? I HIGHLY doubt it.
I've constantly lost on this site and PokerRoom over the last 5-6 months. Prior to trying real money, my "play money" bankroll had grown on both sites for about 9-12 months despite the occasional swings. Yea, I know, the caliber of player at .10/.25 NL or .50/1 LH games is vastly superior to play money....give me a break! I also do fairly well in some bar poker tourneys where I average about 4th place in final table finishes and at the local B&M casino. Not sure if I'm up overall, but I do win decent amounts on a regular basis. The real money online games just have a vacuum hose attached to my funds and won't let go. Somone is sucking out on me so often, the least they could do is pay some bad beat bonuses or earn credits towards merchandise. My trust in online poker is reaching an all-time low and I'm just glad our local casino is expanding their B&M to about 30 tables in March.
DPN |
Then play B&M, but what do you say to the players who have beat the online game for years and still do? What do you say to anyone who beats it? |
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Kei
Two Pair
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Random vs static decks |
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| DaPokerNutz wrote: |
Will someone with mathematical expertise explian how a static deck that is shuffled ONCE prior to a hand can be anywhere similar to a RNG deck that deals a card from anywhere in the deck when the player clicks a button.
DPN |
You are no more or less likely to get a card you need if the deck is shuffled once or a million times. If you need a 10 to come out on the next card, and all four tens are still in the deck, your chance of getting that will still be 4 over how many cards are left in the deck.
It doesn't make it any more or less of a gamble, because you don't know which cards are coming out live either, just as you don't know which are coming out online. It doesn't distract from the skill aspect at all. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Think of it this way: the deck is shuffled once. The order is random, right? Now imagine that it's shuffled twice. Also a random order, right? Now make it shuffled 100000 times - still random. Slot machines are indeed rigged so that the house has as much as a 12% (in some machines) edge. This isn't rigged in anybody's favor. A random card is random no matter how many times the deck is shuffled before you draw it. |
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Malnuh
High Card
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: Fooled into all in with KK |
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| The only time I have seen AA v AA was when I was holding KK. I felt that the second AA player was reading that the first was weak preflop so I called. |
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