Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

Kestrel · High Card Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 12

Hi there, I have a question about razz, low limit (and freerolls) when you have a good/premium starting hand. When I have the good fortune to start out with with a premium hand like A25, A35, 63A, my thought is that I want to push out most of the table and be against 1 or at the most 2 other opponents. I've tried raising and limping, and at the low limits and freerolls, raising doesn't push people out it just sweetens the pot (especially if I happen to be 1 or 2 positions left of the bring in), and limping while it does limit my risk in that round to the amount of the bring in, just seems to mean that there are more people around on the next street to catch the low cards that I need to complete my hand (or make their hand when I brick). What's the best approach to take? (I've tried check raising and that seems to only bring in the biggest maniac at the table who will raise and call and suck out infuriatingly by 7th street. And I want a little action - I don't want to win just the bring in and antes when I get dealt a premium hand. But I don't want to lose big because I expect to win. Confused

Thanks for any ideas.

Foxy_Boxer · Straight Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 105

Even those premium hands aren't huge favorites over marginal hands, so don't be too upset if you just win the antes. Frankly, I think the best option is to just raise. Check-raising (limp-re-raising) is ok, if you're pretty sure someone else will raise, AND you think the check-raise will get other limpers to fold. However, you're sacrificing deception, as people are now pretty sure you have 3 to a wheel. (Then again, at low stakes, are people really paying that much attention?) Now, while the single raise may not eliminate as many people as you'd like, at least you are allowing all the loose players to "make a mistake" by calling you. Yes, you will lose more often versus 5 people than you would vs 1, but the size of the pot when you actually win will make up for the times when you lose. It's frustrating to lose when you started with the best hand, but since the betting structure is "limit," there isn't much you can do about it.

jbrennen · Straight Flush Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 422

At micro limits (.25-.50 or .50-1.00), you want to be raising your premium starting hands every chance you have.

You don't get to decide whether your opponents call or fold -- but you really shouldn't care in the long run. I've seen some horribly bad calls at .25-.50 which have led to me losing hands on a 7th street miracle, but I want to keep playing against those folks. Smile

Just note who these players are, and DO NOT try to bluff them, but bet your strong hands into them over and over and over....

ftn_chris · Message Board Junkie Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 1177

i played a couple razz freerolls out of boredom in the last week and i was disgusted. i noticed the same thing as you, a completion from 1 left of the bringin with 23a will get called by 5 hands, including maybe a J up and a Q up. Someone above me said it those, razz hands vary extremely, A23 vs 678 is only like 60/40 i think.

that being said, the first hour (or 2 in freerolls) is completely blind draw, and you can get dealt 4 high 5 times and lose all 5. So skill wise, theres not much you can do to force them to fold. Just accept all the calls, always raise it when you KNOW you have the best (in freerolls it isnt too hard to tell), and hope it holds.

after a few hours, you'll start seeing 4th street with only 1 or maybe 2 other people, and you can actually play real razz. the last freeroll i played i waited til i won 1 big hand that got me to 2500 in chips, then i just sat out an hour and watched videos on youtube. when i came back there were less to 4th street and i could play real

mcai · Straight Joined: 07 Feb 2006 Posts: 114

I don't understand the negative effect of pairs on Razz, I had triple 7 and a pair of 3. So those numbers seem not to count. Please explain this hand history. I do not understand the impact of pair and triples eliminating them from being part of the winning numbers

Full Tilt Poker Game #2041825753: 250 Play Money Sit & Go (15312941), Table 1 - 60/120 Ante 10 - Limit Razz - 0:39:44 ET - 2007/03/22
Seat 1: mcai (2,078)
Seat 2: EOTEL (3,857)
Seat 3: Yassa (131), is sitting out
Seat 5: MunkeyDust (1,327), is sitting out
Seat 6: ButterMuffin1 (1,342), is sitting out
Seat 7: bartmv (2,188)
Seat 8: Ramjet49 (1,077), is sitting out
mcai antes 10
EOTEL antes 10
Yassa antes 10
MunkeyDust antes 10
ButterMuffin1 antes 10
bartmv antes 10
Ramjet49 antes 10
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to mcai [3s 2d] [7c]
Dealt to EOTEL [Kh]
Dealt to Yassa [9s]
Dealt to MunkeyDust [9h]
Dealt to ButterMuffin1 [Jd]
Dealt to bartmv [3d]
Dealt to Ramjet49 [2h]
EOTEL is high with [Kh]
EOTEL brings in for 20
Yassa folds
MunkeyDust folds
ButterMuffin1 folds
bartmv has 15 seconds left to act
bartmv folds
Ramjet49 folds
mcai calls 20
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to mcai [3s 2d 7c] [7d]
Dealt to EOTEL [Kh] [Tc]
EOTEL checks
mcai checks
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to mcai [3s 2d 7c 7d] [3h]
Dealt to EOTEL [Kh Tc] [4h]
EOTEL checks
mcai checks
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to mcai [3s 2d 7c 7d 3h] [7s]
Dealt to EOTEL [Kh Tc 4h] [Qc]
EOTEL bets 120
mcai calls 120
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to mcai [3s 2d 7c 7d 3h 7s] [Qs]
EOTEL checks
mcai checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
EOTEL shows [Kd Js Kh Tc 4h Qc 9d] (Q,J,T,9,4)
mcai mucks
EOTEL wins the pot (350) with Q,J,T,9,4
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 350 | Rake 0
Seat 1: mcai mucked [Qs 3s 7c 7d 3h 7s 2d] - a pair of Threes
Seat 2: EOTEL showed [Kd Js Kh Tc 4h Qc 9d] and won (350) with Q,J,T,9,4
Seat 3: Yassa folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: MunkeyDust folded on 3rd St.
Seat 6: ButterMuffin1 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: bartmv folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: Ramjet49 folded on 3rd St.

ftn_chris · Message Board Junkie Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 1177

only one of each rank counts. AA22334 is a terrible hand, worse than 910JQK. AA22345 however is the nuts. If you pair you still get to use one of those cards to make your hand, just not both. AA22345 and A23459J are the same. Both are A2345. AAA2234 is just A234A, a pair of Aces. I think that covers ever possibility where pairs could come up.

so in your hand you had 237Q3 for a pair of 3's. Q high beats a pair since the game is a draw to the low.

Foxy_Boxer · Straight Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 105

Count your "worst" (lowest) cards first. When you run out of non-paired cards, start counting your paired cards (lowest first). However, once you have counted your five lowest cards, you stop.

Example: your hand by the river reads 6A33844
count your A, it's the lowest
look for the next lowest card...it's a 3
next lowest? skip the second 3, look at the 4
next? 6
next? 8
you have now reached five cards, which completes your hand
you have A3468 as your best five card hand, but should now read it as 8643A
you can beat 8732A, but lose to 85432

Let's say that 8 was actually another 4...
you have A346, but have now run out of unpaired cards
your next lowest card is now the other 3
your hand can now be read as 3364A, or a pair of 3s
you can beat a higher pair, but lose to KQJT9

It will take a little practice, but I find this method helpful.

mcai · Straight Joined: 07 Feb 2006 Posts: 114

When I read the hand histories, only one of the pair is counted. In the example above that I asked to be explained, the 7s were never mentioned.

mcai · Straight Joined: 07 Feb 2006 Posts: 114

Seat 1: mcai mucked [Qs 3s 7c 7d 3h 7s 2d] - a pair of Threes
Seat 2: EOTEL showed [Kd Js Kh Tc 4h Qc 9d] and won (350) with Q,J,T,9,4

Here, in this hand history, if I follow your method , I should show, Q7327. Is this hand bad because it is a full house? Again, above, the 7s are not even mentioned. So it seems that pairs and sets work against you in RAZZ, but the directions imply that pairs don't count. So I am so confused.

byamamoto1 · Bay Area Bidness Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 2180

well if you paired, since its a lowball game it would go by your lowest pair. so your hand is effecively 33Q72. you have the pair of 3's then the Q and your next lowest, 7, then 2. In razz, it is absolutely TERRIBLE to have a full house. You want to have the lowest 5 cards, UNPAIRED, which is A2345. In this game, Straights and Flushes do not count, but other factors like pairs, etc do hurt because they affect the cards that you can potentially get to make your low stronger. In Stud Hi, 777 as a starting hand looks great, but its an automatic fold in Razz.

so for example say player A is holding 7643A, while player B holds 8432A. Who would win? Player A would win in this instance because in Razz, you count from the highest card down. In this case Player A would have a 7 low and Player B would have an 8 low. hope this clears up some of the confusion for you.

jbrennen · Straight Flush Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 422

mcai · Straight Joined: 07 Feb 2006 Posts: 114

ok I got it. They should make this clearer in the explanation of the game in the How to Play section. I was thinking the lowest 5 cards meant that the pair of 3 and the triple seven helped because that was 5 low cards to the other player's queens etc. Oh well luckily it was play money so the learning experience was cheap.

	Full Tilt Poker is licensed by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. © Copyright 2004 - 2005 FullTiltPoker.com., All Rights Reserved