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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3505
Location: East Coast
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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: A funny hand, critique if you want |
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I've been on a real pot building kick lately(not nearly as much calling) and overall it's really helped my play. This was an interesting hand, plus the comments after. Did get a little passive in spots, but hey, I'm working on it. The villain was a total dck though, so it was a nice pot to take from him. Funny thing was, he got mad at me for scooping, even though the other guy had him beat.
Full Tilt Poker Game #1870012295: Table Shady Timbers - $0.50/$1 Ante $0.10 - Limit Seven Card Stud Hi/Lo - 12:10:38 ET - 2007/02/25
Seat 1: Zophar ($24.25)
Seat 2: XFREEBIRDX ($9.35)
Seat 3: poker vista ($8.25)
Seat 5: moots gator ($0.85)
Seat 6: LarryM17 ($19.05)
Seat 7: Arupaeo ($25.55)
Seat 8: Raveng ($16.90)
poker vista antes $0.10
moots gator antes $0.10
Raveng antes $0.10
Arupaeo antes $0.10
LarryM17 antes $0.10
Zophar antes $0.10
XFREEBIRDX antes $0.10
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Zophar [7d 6c] [5d]
Dealt to XFREEBIRDX [3h]
Dealt to poker vista [Kd]
Dealt to moots gator [8d]
Dealt to LarryM17 [2c]
Dealt to Arupaeo [Qs]
Dealt to Raveng [5h]
LarryM17 is low with [2c]
LarryM17 brings in for $0.15
Arupaeo folds
FlushMcDuffy sits down
Raveng folds
FlushMcDuffy adds $10
Zophar completes it to $0.50
XFREEBIRDX raises to $1
poker vista calls $1
FlushMcDuffy stands up
moots gator calls $0.75, and is all in
LarryM17 folds
Zophar raises to $1.50
XFREEBIRDX raises to $2
poker vista calls $1
Zophar calls $0.50
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Zophar [7d 6c 5d] [7c]
Dealt to XFREEBIRDX [3h] [9s]
Dealt to poker vista [Kd] [3s]
Dealt to moots gator [8d] [Ks]
Zophar bets $0.50
XFREEBIRDX raises to $1
poker vista raises to $1.50
Zophar calls $1
XFREEBIRDX raises to $2
poker vista calls $0.50
Zophar calls $0.50
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Zophar [7d 6c 5d 7c] [8h]
Dealt to XFREEBIRDX [3h 9s] [4h]
Dealt to poker vista [Kd 3s] [Qd]
Dealt to moots gator [8d Ks] [9h]
poker vista checks
Zophar checks
XFREEBIRDX bets $1
poker vista calls $1
Zophar raises to $2
XFREEBIRDX raises to $3
poker vista calls $2
Zophar calls $1
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Zophar [7d 6c 5d 7c 8h] [6s]
Dealt to XFREEBIRDX [3h 9s 4h] [Tc]
Dealt to poker vista [Kd 3s Qd] [8c]
Dealt to moots gator [8d Ks 9h] [Qh]
Zophar bets $1
XFREEBIRDX raises to $2
poker vista calls $1.15, and is all in
Zophar calls $1
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Zophar [7d 6c 5d 7c 8h 6s] [4c]
Zophar bets $1
XFREEBIRDX calls $0.25, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $0.75 returned to Zophar
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Zophar shows [7d 6c 5d 7c 8h 6s 4c] (a straight, Eight high)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
(8,7,6,5,4)
XFREEBIRDX mucks
Zophar wins high side pot #2 ($1.10) with a straight, Eight high
Zophar wins low side pot #2 ($1.10) with 8,7,6,5,4
poker vista mucks
Zophar wins high side pot #1 ($10.95) with a straight, Eight high
Zophar wins low side pot #1 ($10.90) with 8,7,6,5,4
moots gator mucks
Zophar wins the high main pot ($1.85) with a straight, Eight high
Zophar wins the low main pot ($1.85) with 8,7,6,5,4
XFREEBIRDX is sitting out
poker vista is sitting out
moots gator adds $10
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $28.25 Main pot $3.85. Side pot 1 $22.20. Side pot 2 $2.20. | Rake $0.50
Seat 1: Zophar showed [7d 6c 5d 7c 8h 6s 4c] and won ($27.75) with HI: a straight, Eight high; LO: 8,7,6,5,4
Seat 2: XFREEBIRDX mucked [Jd Jc 3h 9s 4h Tc 2s] - HI: a pair of Jacks
Seat 3: poker vista mucked [Ac Kc Kd 3s Qd 8c 8s] - HI: two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: moots gator mucked [As 5c 8d Ks 9h Qh 4d] - HI: Ace King high
Seat 6: LarryM17 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: Arupaeo folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: Raveng folded on 3rd St.
XFREEBIRDX: nice catch %%&
Zophar: yeah, I'm playing hi/lo
Zophar: lol, he was capping jacks
LarryM17: yeah not smart
Zophar: especially not w/split K's next to him
XFREEBIRDX (Observer): if some dumbases would ever fold
Zophar: you had thew worst of it
XFREEBIRDX (Observer): fk u
XFREEBIRDX (Observer): id out play your dumbass anyday
Zophar: keep capping J's against split K's
XFREEBIRDX (Observer): i will
Zophar: good and you'll continue to lose
XFREEBIRDX: just keep retard raising a possible low
Zophar: no, it was a three straight meathead, can't ask for much better in hi/lol
Zophar: more than likely to scoop than j's |
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beavis68
High Card
Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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dont get into it with players like that. Don't insult a guy like freebird.
That hand was pretty uncharacteristic of him, he is usually more passive than that.
otherwise it looks ok. wouldn't be pounding that much PF though. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3505
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| The guy had a serious mouth on him. It's unlike me to continue with someone that like, but he wouldn't shut up and when he sat back down it did create a little tilt factor, so it was worth continuing. At the table he was playing more of a Stud high oriented game, then critiquing everyone who played scoop type low hands. As far as betting pre 4th, when I get a quality hi/lo scoop hand like that w/2 others in the pot, I want it to be as big as possible. If it's a hand worth betting, it's a hand worth raising IMO. |
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citizen428
High Card
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Arguments like the one you posted are the prime reason I tend to turn off player and observer chat unless I'm in a really good mood. 
Personally I tend to agree with beavis and wouldn't play that hand that aggressively PF. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3505
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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The two of you have stated that you wouldn'thave played the hand that aggressively PF, but have given absolutely no reasoning for it.(Hate to nitpick, but it's not a flop BTW, it's 4th street. Just a pet peeve) I'll give my reasoning for playing it that way:
1. When I get a big starting hand, I will play it aggressively as possible. I like to build a big pot with more than 1 player involved, especially one that is obviously going for high only. I'd probably play something like 235, 347, 236, etc. very similarly w/the extra player in. 3 straight w/ the draw to the rough 7, 4 cards to come. Very easy to play fast. If I hit a straight or low card on 4th or 5th, the hand is going to be capped to 7th anyway. I do realize the paired card on 4th did put me behind, but the raise was a way to help define his hand with the 9 up. This told me that low wasn't what he was looking at.
2. Knowing that one is going for high only, villian either has rolled 3's or buried AA(which are more likely not to go low) or a similar hand to mine. These are the more common sense hands to conclude. Had I known he had buried J's, I'd have DEFINITELY pushed it. No question.
3. Play at this level is EXTREMELY weak/passive. Very little raising until late streets, when hands are made and obvious, so pots stay small. I don't like small pots and I like to apply pressure on EVERY STREET when possible against weak players. The play is so weak here, you see very little value bets on 7th and quite often, the hi and low check down from 5th on because they don't want to increase the rake. So many missed bets here. Often, the hi will miss bets because the low was never made,or the low fails to bet their low w/small 2pr which might beat the unimproved split K's that started high. For instance, if I have a made low(obvious only low out there) w/an OESD or inside straight draw on 5th, I will cap it into any hand, including paired door cards. The 35% OESD and 18% inside draws when made will far surpass any money lost to the rake.
4. The aggression sets the tone from there on about how peopleplay against me. Atleast 5 of the 8 players at the table become real conservative when they get involved in a hand with me. I end up picking up a ton of the ante's and bringins and the pots that people give up on. Also, their hands become clear quickly when they do get involved with me, because they are playing tighter w/better hands.
If you plan on critiquing, please say WHY you feel something should be done a certain way so it can be discussed. |
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citizen428
High Card
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
The two of you have stated that you wouldn'thave played the hand that aggressively PF, but have given absolutely no reasoning for it.(Hate to nitpick, but it's not a flop BTW, it's 4th street. Just a pet peeve)
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I just don't like to get too aggressive before 4th street (you're right about the flop of course), especially when they are straight draws. I wasn't really critiquing anything in your play, I just stated a personal preference which I didn't make clear at all. I guess I'd have played the hand the same way if it were 3 to a flush instead of 3 to a straight. But I'm quite new to Stud 8, so I read your reasoning with great interest. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3505
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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It is common unfortunately for people to leave out the why's in here so I get a little testy about it sometimes. Sorry about that. I did do some math on it though after running it through twodimes odds calculator. I ahd forgotten about the 4th player intitially and was only basing my thought process on 3 players. After running the odds, 4 works out to be even more profitable.
On 3rd I'm a 44% favorite to win low and 22.3% to scoop. Say we stopped the hand there w/betting and it just played out. I win 1/2 of the 2.00(4 x .50) pot 44% of the time. Then I scoop the 2.00 pot 22.3% of the time. So for every .50 I put forth, will win .44 for the low + .22 for the scoop(I subtracted the low from the scoop since it was already part of the 44%) for a total of .66. This is a +EV situation. It's a small but profitable edge.
44% x .5(4players x .50)=.44
22.3% x 2.=.44 /2(low already counted)=.22
.44+.22=.66
Just like Hold'em, playing aggressively with +EV hands is very profitable in the STud games. |
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citizen428
High Card
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| It is common unfortunately for people to leave out the why's in here so I get a little testy about it sometimes. Sorry about that. |
No need to be sorry, challenging me to explain my statements will help my play by making me think more about it.
Thanks for the analysis btw, I guess I'll have to mess around with a Stud8 calculator a little to get a better feeling for my starting hands. |
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beavis68
High Card
Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
44% x .5(4players x .50)=.44
22.3% x 2.=.44 /2(low already counted)=.22
.44+.22=.66
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I have no idea what that math is supposed to mean.
You have at the very best 32% pot equity in this hand on 3rd. That is if you know your opponents hands, and you do not. (32% is great 4 ways though)
You good lucky FB was playing so badly.
Against more likly range of hands your equity falls towards neutral or negative on the play.
Not only that, you are building a big pot that you may feel the need to stay in longer and make -ev plays on later streets because the pot is large.
You also have a dead 3, and a dead 8 that is a diamond.
Going a little slower on the cheap streets will give you some control later and may allow you to gain more equity later with a larger edge. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3505
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| beavis68 wrote: |
| Zophar wrote: |
44% x .5(4players x .50)=.44
22.3% x 2.=.44 /2(low already counted)=.22
.44+.22=.66
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I have no idea what that math is supposed to mean.
You have at the very best 32% pot equity in this hand on 3rd. That is if you know your opponents hands, and you do not. (32% is great 4 ways though)
You good lucky FB was playing so badly.
Against more likly range of hands your equity falls towards neutral or negative on the play.
Not only that, you are building a big pot that you may feel the need to stay in longer and make -ev plays on later streets because the pot is large.
You also have a dead 3, and a dead 8 that is a diamond.
Going a little slower on the cheap streets will give you some control later and may allow you to gain more equity later with a larger edge. |
The math was just a simplified version inserting simulator generated percentages with likely return on $ put into the pot on 3rd street.
I based my play strictly on the # of players and their likely holdings. I felt it was MOST likely that 2 were going hi and one was drawing to an 8. The LIKELY hands that I put these specific players on lead me to believe I was in a +EV situation to bet, which it turned out it was. The K's were obvious, and even though he had a 3 showing, I still put the villian on a higher hand because he had primarily only pushed high hands like that. I hadn't seen him push a low, but I still kept it in mind. Really, he was IMO playing this game against the norm. He was playing STUD HI primarily, with the occasional low backed into. All sorts of crappy pairs, from 6-J's were common. I've always played it as a low/scoop game that backed into the occasional high. I still feel that he played the J's horribly, he was behind from the start in the hand. You mentioned that I got LUCKY that FB was playing so badly. His playing style is what lead to my making the play that I did. I wouldn't really consider it luck on my part. The luck is having players that allow you to make certain plays, not because you happen to sit with bad players.
Had it been against against 2 LIKELY quality lows and a high, I'm probably not going to push as hard. I look at this type of situation somewhat similarly to when playing LHE when UTG raises, 3 callers and I'm on the button w/J10s and raising. It's a play that only works so often, but when it does, there's a big payoff.( I thank Sklansky for that play).
I also have found myself adapting some of my 2-7 Triple draw play to the Stud games(and vice versa). Instead of 3 draws to a 237 for example, I play it as 4 draws to a 567. They end up playing out very similarly.
I agree that building a big pot CAN lead to bad -EV calls later on, but if I don't hit by 5th any of my hot cards, or it looks like I'm not going to win either way if I do hit, I dump it. However, like I said previously, I would only make this play against several lesser quality players w/more inferior hands(I don't think K's are inferior here). I will always punsih someone drawing to an 8 and villian was so loose, I couldn't actually give him credit for anything too substantial. Also, say I was playing 10/20. I wouldn't have made this play for even more likely reasons. A. It'd be VERY unlikely that someone w/J's would be capping into split K's and an 8 low would be hanging around. Some part of the play was because of the level.
Also, the psychological factor of the play was effective, which can help make this a +EV situation. This is an area that I've really been working on. Creating a specific image had a pretty significant impact on the play at the table for quite awhile.
You definitely made some good points though and I appreciate your input. |
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beavis68
High Card
Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I got it, .66 = $0.66.
I am not sure why you put Freebird on a high hand so readily, unless it was AA3 or 333.
I have a few hundred hands logged on him and the is by far the worst I have seen him play.
I was surprised that your hand was as strong as it was, even against a solid hand like 333 or 243s you have 23% equity.
I tend to be a little more passive in loose weak split pot games. I like to trap folks and surprise them later.
I will remember how strong 756ds is from now on though. |
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Pil Sung
Four of a Kind
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 255
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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I only see one thing you did wrong...
wanna guess what it is?
NH, and I had a similar situation the other night in the 2/4 HORSE game.
Hit my low draw in razz and a guy proceeded to whine about it for the next 20 minutes. I ended up getting paid off from another player when I hit a bigger FH on 6th because of it too.
Talking smack when someone is on tilt is fun  |
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