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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: Never bring in for a completion in stud hi |
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You should never bring in for a completion in stud hi, except in very rare tournament situations. Here is why:
- If you only bring in for a completion when you have a good hand, then you are asking to be stolen from every time you don't complete.
- If you do it every time, you are throwing away money when forced in
(which generally is with a bad hand, since you already have the lowest up card)
- When you bring in for a completion, you lose certain options on how to play the hand. If you bring in for the minimum, when someone completes you, they only complete for a partial bet, while you can raise back a full bet, or you can decide to slow play your hand. If you bring in for the completion, you now expose yourself to being raised back a full bet.
If you always bring in for the minimum, you have a choice of how to play the hand, and you do not give away the strength of your hand.
Most of the time, in live play, I don't even look at my down cards when I bring in. |
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Andy Bloch
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: Re: Never bring in for a completion in stud hi |
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| Perry Friedman wrote: |
Most of the time, in live play, I don't even look at my down cards when I bring in. |
Does this only apply when you are the bring-in? 
When bringing in, I don't usually look at my down cards either, but I pause before bringing it in while I make a mental note of all the upcards before they are folded. |
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Oceaned
High Card
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:54 pm Post subject: I don't think you mean heads up... |
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| Just wondering if you still believe thats the best play in a 2 handed cash game. If so, I never heard or seen that. Also, since this is stated, are also impling that you don't look at them in a 3 handed game or 4 handed game either? |
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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: I don't think you mean heads up... |
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| Oceaned wrote: |
| Just wondering if you still believe thats the best play in a 2 handed cash game. If so, I never heard or seen that. Also, since this is stated, are also impling that you don't look at them in a 3 handed game or 4 handed game either? |
Even heads up, it is almost certainly incorrect to bring in for a completion.
Whether or not you look at them before bringing in is a matter of choice. But by not looking, you can't give a tell. Heads up, not looking is actually a simpler thing to do than full table. In order to do the no-look play at a full table, as Andy points out, you need to check out the entire table and see what cards are out and catalogue that information so that when it comes back to you, you can intelligently act on your hand. Heads up, there is only one other player, so you don't need to remember cards that were folded. |
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Oceaned
High Card
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| huh, i still believe in the long run you are not maximizing your bets if you never complete. |
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ephro
Two Pair
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Oceaned wrote: |
| huh, i still believe in the long run you are not maximizing your bets if you never complete. |
I disagree with this statement. I never really have thought about it outside of this topic, but as Perry said:
| Perry Friedman wrote: |
| When you bring in for a completion, you lose certain options on how to play the hand. If you bring in for the minimum, when someone completes you, they only complete for a partial bet, while you can raise back a full bet, or you can decide to slow play your hand. If you bring in for the completion, you now expose yourself to being raised back a full bet. |
Lets assume a bring-in of 100 and a complete of 300, and ignore antes for this comment.
So say for a beginning example you start out with a hand marginally better than your opponent. If you bring in for a full bet, and normally don't, most likely if your opponent has a decent read on you they might either opt to not play, or opt to call. If they call the pot is now 600, and you don't get an option to make them play for a bigger pot.
If you normally bring in and they complete, you can raise, if they fold you win the same number of chips from them without letting them see 4th street. If they call the pot is now 1200, so you got an extra bet out of them. This idea negates your comment of missing a bet.
If you have an extremely powerful hand and get a few loose calls intially in front of you for the complete bring in, then later positions are going to get to play for a big pot for one bet without you getting to reraise.
With an extememly aggressive player to your left if you normally bring-in, and he completes drawing a few other hands you have the option to raise from the bring in, to attempt to isolate to the over-aggressive player. This works out even better if he reraises you.
On the flip side, lets assume that you have a marginally worse hand than another player. If you normally bring in, you get to see what the rest of the table is going to do, there could be a number of cases that you would play your hand against the majority of the feild, except for one or two opponents. By bringing in for a full bet, those players will probably call your full bet, while if you did a normal bring in, you would be able to put them on a smaller range of hands if they completed the bet. This information is lost if you don't get to see that action.
I'm not sure if I'm on the right track here, but after reading the other posts, that is the idea that I now have.
ephro |
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Oceaned
High Card
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| i think it boils down to completing the bring in when you believe the other person was going to complete anyways, when you have a strong starting hand. If the other person would still bet out after your bring in for a completion, then you would be able to get another bet in. Whereas, if you just bring in for the min. and he completes then you raise a full bet, you are not maximizing the bet in that situation. I see what your saying, but i don't think you can make a blind bold statement of never completeing. |
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rao3151
Pair
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Oceaned wrote: |
| i think it boils down to completing the bring in when you believe the other person was going to complete anyways, when you have a strong starting hand. If the other person would still bet out after your bring in for a completion, then you would be able to get another bet in. Whereas, if you just bring in for the min. and he completes then you raise a full bet, you are not maximizing the bet in that situation. I see what your saying, but i don't think you can make a blind bold statement of never completeing. |
I think you are doing the math wrong in your head which is confusing you. Lets say you are playing a 15/30 game on FT, there is an ante of $3 and a bring in of $5. So lets say you have a 3 doorcard and buried q's. If you bring in and say your opponent completes with split 10's and you re-raise him and he calls, then the total pot will be $72 ($6 in antes, your $5 bring in, his intial $15 complete, your reraise to $30 (you pay $25more since you already have $5 in) and his call of $15. However, if you complete on the bring in a few things may happen. If you have been playing for a half hour and this is the first time you have done this, he may get suspicious and fold which means you collect an $11 pot, but only $3 of that is not yours. Or if he has say split jacks, but thinks you have buried q's or better, but does not want to fold then he may just call your completion. If this happens then there is only $36 in the pot ($6 in antes, your $15 complete, and his $15 call). If you had just brought in and he had split jacks, he would almost certainly complete giving you a chance to reraise. I see what you are worried about which is if you bring in, he may only call the bring in and not complete, but you set off such alarm bells and almost beg for people to put you on buried aces or kings when you complete for bring in because there is no way you would do it if you were rolled. Also if you make this strong move, it takes away your ability usually to pull a check raise on 4th or more importantly on 5th when the betting doubles. Obviously the options of what you have will be dictated by other people doorcards, but people are less likely to play if you complete on the bring in which also means you squander a wonderful opportunity. Also if you complete with buried q's and 3 kicker and someone has split aces or kings, they will most likely re-raise knowning a big pair plays better heads up and now it has become much more expensive for you to see 4th street and you are playing from behind. Most likely in a full game with 8 people, if you bring in, someone will complete, which gives you the option to reraise when its gets around to you and imagine how much bigger the pot will be if you bring in and 3 people call the complete and then you re-raise then it would be if you complete for the bring in. The reason for this is people are more likely to call a complete with a hand like split 9's and q kicker if the 9's and q's are live then they are if you see a complete for bring in because as I said people would not complete for bring in if they are rolled so it is logical to put you on a very high buried pair. I should note I am also like Perry when I play live, in the sense that I do not look at my buried cards either when I bring in. |
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Oceaned
High Card
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| i believe i am doing the math right on my part, you are comparing a different situation from what I stated. But, we can agree to disagree. |
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Broadsword
High Card
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Never bring in for a completion in stud hi |
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| Andy Bloch wrote: |
| When bringing in, I don't usually look at my down cards either, but I pause before bringing it in while I make a mental note of all the upcards before they are folded. |
Excellent advise to all playing any stud game.... |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2095
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Also, since you will always be bringing it in for minimum, when you do have a hand, sometimes, if another player completes, you can three bet before 4th street. This way you get an extra bet in. Also this play is very strong later in stud tournamenets when people are often completing on a steal. |
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rao3151
Pair
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Ocean: Why would you bother completing in a heads up match. If you have a big buried pair, you are already heads up, so you don't need to eliminate anyone so why not wait and do a check raise move on 5th street when the betting doubles? For instance if you have buried kings with a 3 doorcard and your opponent has a jack door card. Lets say you bring in and he completes. Even if he has split jacks, as long as he does not have an ace kicker, you are way ahead in the hand, so why not wait to raise on 5th street especially if you have a non threatening board and he seems to have caught blank/blank. I am curious as to what you think is a hand that is worth completing on the bring in either heads up or multi-table. As I have stated in the past I am with Perry and Andy in the sense that I don't look at my cards if I am the bring in. Interestingly, I never looked at this from a tell perspective, I was just always taught you never bring in for completion so why bother looking at your cards. |
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PostModernBoy
Pair
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:33 am Post subject: Re: |
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| rao3151 wrote: |
| Ocean: Why would you bother completing in a heads up match. |
I've played a limited amount of stud in heads-up situations. It has always confused the crap out of me when someone completed heads up. So, if you want to befuddle your opponent occasionally, consider rarely completing, I suppose. |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2095
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The confusing thing about it is that if the player who completes REALLY wants a lot of money in the pot, they will bring it in, knowing that his opponent could complete and then he could three-bet. So completing is often weaker than bringing it in. |
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GTKID
Four of a Kind
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 305
Location: Waxahachie, Tx
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I've played a lot of heads up SNGs with my friend in stud and when one of us is short stacked and weak the other will ussually pounce and Complete for the bring in and raise the bring in every opportunity. Showing that the shortstack better have a hand or a draw cause the pot is getting played.
If you complete for the bring in and they reraise and you reraise again, you would get an extra bet, you are also giving away the strength of your hand. You would probably be better off to raise on the expensive street trying to get an extra big bet in then an extra small bet. Bringing in also allows you the option to slowplay so you can pounce on fifth street and trap them for lots of big bets.
Basically when you complete the bring in you make less of your good hands and lose more on your bad ones. The extra bet you think you will get in on 3rd street really isn't there. Your completing the bring in will probably make this hand that was going to complete, not raise you and losing you bets. |
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