Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

telebob · Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: Made hand vs. draw

This may just be a run of the mill bad beat, but it seems to happen w/ some regularity. Is it just razz, or should I be playing differently somehow?

My first post, thanks in advance.

This one isn't really crazy, but i had a hard time finding the hands in the log file. Any tips for locating specific hands easily?

Full Tilt Poker Game #1587221942: Table Danville - $0.50/$1 Ante $0.10 - Limit Razz - 21:07:28 ET - 2007/01/12
Seat 1: Poisoncomic2 ($14.60)
Seat 2: EvilRand ($9.20)
Seat 3: gmac79 ($26.95)
Seat 4: profkenz ($19.80)
Seat 5: telebob ($9.15)
Seat 6: jtgarlic ($2.20)
Seat 7: MR STILES ($13.70)
Seat 8: Takeover_inc ($36.85)
Poisoncomic2 antes $0.10
EvilRand antes $0.10
telebob antes $0.10
profkenz antes $0.10
jtgarlic antes $0.10
Takeover_inc antes $0.10
MR STILES antes $0.10
gmac79 antes $0.10
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Poisoncomic2 [7d]
Dealt to EvilRand [5s]
Dealt to gmac79 [6d]
Dealt to profkenz [As]
Dealt to telebob [8d 6s] [3s]
Dealt to jtgarlic [2s]
Dealt to MR STILES [5d]
Dealt to Takeover_inc [8s]
Takeover_inc is high with [8s]
Takeover_inc brings in for $0.15
Poisoncomic2 folds
EvilRand has 15 seconds left to act
EvilRand folds
gmac79 folds
profkenz folds
telebob calls $0.15
jtgarlic folds
MR STILES calls $0.15
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to telebob [8d 6s 3s] [9c]
Dealt to MR STILES [5d] [9s]
Dealt to Takeover_inc [8s] [Qs]
jtgarlic stands up
telebob bets $0.50
MR STILES calls $0.50
Takeover_inc folds
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to telebob [8d 6s 3s 9c] [4d]
Dealt to MR STILES [5d 9s] [9h]
telebob bets $1
MR STILES calls $1
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to telebob [8d 6s 3s 9c 4d] [Ac]
Dealt to MR STILES [5d 9s 9h] [3d]
telebob bets $1
MR STILES calls $1
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to telebob [8d 6s 3s 9c 4d Ac] [6c]
krackerwear sits down
telebob bets $1
krackerwear adds $10
MR STILES raises to $2
telebob calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MR STILES shows [7s 6h 5d 9s 9h 3d Ad] (7,6,5,3,A)
telebob mucks
MR STILES wins the pot ($9.75) with 7,6,5,3,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.25 | Rake $0.50
Seat 1: Poisoncomic2 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: EvilRand folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: gmac79 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 4: profkenz folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: telebob mucked [8d 6s 3s 9c 4d Ac 6c] - 8,6,4,3,A
Seat 6: jtgarlic folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: MR STILES showed [7s 6h 5d 9s 9h 3d Ad] and won ($9.75) with 7,6,5,3,A
Seat 8: Takeover_inc folded on 4th St.

goomlah · Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:01 am Post subject:

Stiles is telling you he's drawing to hand that can beat you and he doesn't believe you have a wheel or a 6. Considering the betting pattern, that does make sense. So check-call the river UNLESS you hit a 6 or a 7 because he can beat your hand if he hits. He could easily bluff here on the river if he checks to you, hence why you have to call anything there.

Foxy_Boxer · Straight Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 105

If I'm understanding your question, I think you're basically asking about your "made hand" on 5th street, versus his draw. He has a pair of 9s showing, and you have a made 9 showing, so, unless you're bluffing (possible), he needs runner-runner to beat you. He's probably about a 2.5-1 dog to catch you. On 5th street, after you bet, the pot is $3.25 and he needs to call $1 (3.25-1 on his money). So in the strictest sense, he may be making a correct call. But, it would be a big mistake for YOU to not bet. After all, you're a 2.5-1 favorite at this point.

So, unfortunately, to answer your question, "this is just razz."

However, at the risk of sounding like I'm contradicting myself, sometimes a good draw on 5th street is ahead of a marginal made hand (eg, a 4-card wheel vs a rough made 9). This was not the case in your particular hand though. He did not have a "good" draw.

telebob · Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject:

Thank you both for your replies.

Goomlah, I thought as you said, that stiles had a good draw, and I could have at least saved a buck by check-calling on 7th. He also could have made a read based on my calling the bring-in, and not completing. I usually (not always) complete w/ 7 hi and under, especially from late position. I got the impression, from this and other hands, that he was a good player, and not some donkey, hence my questioning my own play.

Thanks for the odds analysis, Foxy. I can do the pot-odds part, but could you explain (or direct me to an explanation) how to figure the favorite-dog odds? I could probably sit down with a pencil, paper, and calculator, and have the answer by next Thursday, but it would be more useful to have some idea during the hand...

Oh, and I noticed that the site shuffles the hole cards before showing. Does the hand history have the actual order, or is it shuffled as well?

Once again, thanks for the help.

Foxy_Boxer · Straight Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 105

The hand history still shows the shuffled card order, so you just have to make your best guess as to what your opponent actually started with.

As for the odds, check out this website: http://twodimes.net/poker/
You can put in your own/opponents' cards and figure out odds for specific hands. It's not a lot of use during play, but it's good for checking out some theoretical hands. I don't personally know a quick way to figure out the odds during a hand, but after a while you'll start to get a feel for the odds on some common hands, just like you probably have in hold 'em (eg, flush draw is a 2-1 dog on the flop). An interesting one is that A23 is only a 3-2 favorite over 876 on 3rd street.

Ottawa_Boy27 · Pair Joined: 21 Jan 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Ottawa

Here's a really good example of a hand I played where I had a quality draw and my opponent was betting a marginal hand all the way. the pot odds dictated mandatory calls from 5th street on.

(It's from that OTHER site, sorry if that's a no-no on this forum)

*********** # 48 **************
PokerStars Game #7774555190: Razz Limit ($2/$4) - 2007/01/05 - 04:58:35 (ET)
Table 'Helffrich II' 8-max
Seat 1: Ottawa_Boy27 ($157 in chips)
Seat 2: jdot ($94.75 in chips)
Seat 5: ttbaseball ($60.75 in chips)
Seat 6: buzzard1881 ($115.25 in chips)
Seat 7: Phrantic ($84.50 in chips)
Seat 8: ruthlessAce ($94.75 in chips)
Ottawa_Boy27: posts the ante $0.25
jdot: posts the ante $0.25
ttbaseball: posts the ante $0.25
buzzard1881: posts the ante $0.25
Phrantic: posts the ante $0.25
ruthlessAce: posts the ante $0.25
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Ottawa_Boy27 [5d 2h 4c]
Dealt to jdot [Kd]
Dealt to ttbaseball [8h]
Dealt to buzzard1881 [Ad]
Dealt to Phrantic [7d]
Dealt to ruthlessAce [As]
jdot: brings-in low $1
ttbaseball: folds
buzzard1881: folds
Phrantic: folds
ruthlessAce: raises $1 to $2
Ottawa_Boy27: raises $2 to $4
jdot: folds
ruthlessAce: calls $2
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Ottawa_Boy27 [5d 2h 4c] [Kc]
Dealt to ruthlessAce [As] [Td]
ruthlessAce: bets $2
Ottawa_Boy27: calls $2 < yes I caught a K, but he caught a ten which ain�t that great, I�ll pay 6-1 to see 1 more here

*** 5th STREET ***

Dealt to Ottawa_Boy27 [5d 2h 4c Kc] [Ac] < smoothest draw I�ve seen in hours, definitely calling his 10 6 to the river
Dealt to ruthlessAce [As Td] [6d]
ruthlessAce: bets $4
Ottawa_Boy27: calls $4
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Ottawa_Boy27 [5d 2h 4c Kc Ac] [Qd]

Dealt to ruthlessAce [As Td 6d] [9h] < no real help for him, I�ve still got 17 outs against a 9 6, easy call
ruthlessAce: bets $4
Ottawa_Boy27: calls $4
*** RIVER ***

Dealt to Ottawa_Boy27 [5d 2h 4c Kc Ac Qd] [6s] < paydirt, time to hit the gas pedal
ruthlessAce: bets $4
Ottawa_Boy27: raises $4 to $8
ruthlessAce: raises $4 to $12
Ottawa_Boy27: raises $4 to $16
Betting is capped
ruthlessAce: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ottawa_Boy27: shows [5d 2h 4c Kc Ac Qd 6s] (Lo: 6,5,4,2,A)
ruthlessAce: mucks hand
Ottawa_Boy27 collected $60.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $62.50 | Rake $2
Seat 1: Ottawa_Boy27 showed [5d 2h 4c Kc Ac Qd 6s] and won ($60.50) with Lo: 6,5,4,2,A
Seat 2: jdot folded on the 3rd Street
Seat 5: ttbaseball folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 6: buzzard1881 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Phrantic folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

Seat 8: ruthlessAce mucked [2c 2s As Td 6d 9h Qh] < roflmao, a 10 9 !

The guy in this hand got REALLY pissed off at me and berated me for an hour for drawing. However, except for the borderline call on 4th I didn't make a mistake here. Even the call on 4th is defendable cuz my king and his 10 aren't likely to be part of our hands at the end.

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 139

ottowa - your play was very good, and his was, well, about the worst i've seen at least since saturday! lol. Given what happened on 3rd st, your draw is strong enough on 5th to even raise him, tho in this case it might have cost you all that ridiculous river action.

asfispimp · Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject:

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