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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6030
Location: Halifax, NS
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 Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: should i continue with this hand? |
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Full Tilt Poker Game #1486849417: Table San Pablo - $0.50/$1 - Limit Hold'em - 0:29:02 ET - 2006/12/28
Seat 1: turn007 ($5.80)
Seat 2: IMshakey1 ($48)
Seat 3: p65dunc ($34.25)
Seat 4: BigKnockers34 ($28.40)
Seat 5: princerickri ($25.60)
Seat 6: Priya ($22.30)
Seat 7: Hagar1254 ($24.45)
Seat 8: grtflone2 ($4.45)
Seat 9: HuJwang ($38.60)
HuJwang posts the small blind of $0.25
turn007 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HuJwang [Jh Kc]
IMshakey1 folds
p65dunc calls $0.50
BigKnockers34 calls $0.50
princerickri calls $0.50
Priya folds
Hagar1254 calls $0.50
grtflone2 calls $0.50
HuJwang calls $0.25
turn007 checks
*** FLOP *** [Td Js 4h]
HuJwang bets $0.50
turn007 calls $0.50
p65dunc raises to $1
BigKnockers34 calls $1
princerickri calls $1
Hagar1254 is sitting out
Hagar1254 folds
grtflone2 raises to $1.50
HuJwang ?? |
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bigwheell
Royal Flush
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 830
Location: North Dakota
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: |
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I would not have led out with the betting from the SB with your hand...I can almost guess that the betting was capped before the flop betting was finished, someone always likes to cap in these situations...
I would have checked and folded the flop when it was raised back to me...
You may be ahead on the flop in this situation, but with 5 other people in the pot with a couple of raises already, I do not think your marginal hand will hold up until the river.
Preflop you play was fine, call and hope to flop a big hand...
Flop Play I would have check folded when the action got back to you. You can't coldcall with such a weak hand in this situation...Even if you have top pair with second best kicker, I don't think it is going to hold up most of the time by the time this hand gets to showdown... |
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meitiner
Pair
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Bigwheell, I disagree.
Weak top pair with a decent kicker, on a poor flop, I always would like to see where I am.
Nobody raised preflop, so I would think that there isn't a pocket pair out there larger than mine, the flop only gives a straight draw so I'd like to get rid of any over cards that haven't hit.
What then happens is 2 people cold call the raise and then it is raised again, the minimum that I can imagine is an KQ, but also a set or someone played a JT, now I would get out.
If I had not bet I wouldn't have gleened so much information and also lost the chance of thinning the field. |
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bigwheell
Royal Flush
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 830
Location: North Dakota
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Anyone after Huj bets is getting at least 8 to 1 to call, any over card hand is getting the right price to come along. No one is going away to his bet in this hand.
A pair of Jacks, yes it is top pair, but with second best kicker cannot afford to see the turn for two bets, especially when he does not close the betting action. I don't think you can cold call in this situation every time and expect to make money in the long run...IMHO
With 6 other people in the hand and two raises after he lead out from the SB, I don't see how he can expect to be ahead at this point. If he was ahead at that point, he is not the favorite to win the hand against that many opponents.
So I have to disagree with you Meitiner...We will have to let a few of the other forumers post and see what their opinions are... |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3390
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Bigwheell, with that many people in the hand, you need to flop 2pair or better to be able to continue with the hand, it's extremely unlikely you are ahead right now. Someone will have JT or 44 or something, someone will have a damn good draw and you'll probably be drawing extremely thin.
You should have check/folded the flop, but apart from that it was fine. |
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ridic x
Straight Flush
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 485
Location: At your tables stealin your moneyz
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| yeah leading at the pot does nothing to push anyone out. It simply gives huge odds for any hand to call and also traps you on later streets b/c of the massive pot. Def check and see what they do. If you can get to the turn for one bet I'd do it but if it's 2 bets or more when it gets back to me this is an easy muck. |
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divakitty
Straight
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 107
Location: FL - near Sarasota
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| meitiner wrote: |
Sorry Bigwheell, I disagree.
Weak top pair with a decent kicker, on a poor flop, I always would like to see where I am.
Nobody raised preflop, so I would think that there isn't a pocket pair out there larger than mine, the flop only gives a straight draw so I'd like to get rid of any over cards that haven't hit.
What then happens is 2 people cold call the raise and then it is raised again, the minimum that I can imagine is an KQ, but also a set or someone played a JT, now I would get out.
If I had not bet I wouldn't have gleened so much information and also lost the chance of thinning the field. |
I don't think that Meitner was disputing the need to fold at this point. He was, however, indicating that the initial bet after the flop was appropriate (and I agree). It only cost him 50 cents to obtain much more information and potentially thin the herd. |
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bigwheell
Royal Flush
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 830
Location: North Dakota
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
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The initial bet was not a good play...What did he find out by betting out that he couldn't have found out be checking...It would have still been raised and reraised by the time it got back to him...
This is a small leak that can cost you many BB over the course of a day if it is repeated over and over again...
Just my opinion... |
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fire_eyes_2k
The Burn Card
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 3390
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| bigwheell wrote: |
The initial bet was not a good play...What did he find out by betting out that he couldn't have found out be checking...It would have still been raised and reraised by the time it got back to him...
This is a small leak that can cost you many BB over the course of a day if it is repeated over and over again...
Just my opinion... |
I agree bigwheell.
I think the bottom line is that when there are 5 or more to a flop, top pair is very rarely good enough, and you will either win a little or lose a lot if you proceed with it. |
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meitiner
Pair
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| bigwheell wrote: |
The initial bet was not a good play...What did he find out by betting out that he couldn't have found out be checking...It would have still been raised and reraised by the time it got back to him...
This is a small leak that can cost you many BB over the course of a day if it is repeated over and over again...
Just my opinion... |
It would have been a bet and then a raise, unless turn007 limped.
Here you got a raise and a reraise, what they had I'm not interested in after that I would fold.
But what would then happen if you got the raise and that pushed everyone else out?
What would you have done if you checked and everyone limped and it came back to you?
If you checked and nobody bet, you had more than likely thrown away a quick winner by giving everyone a free card.
The first bet was to get information, maybe take the hand down, limit the callers and give yourself more chance of winning the pot, or better said, less chance of lossing it.
Maybe I'm too agressive in my play, but when I bet out in this situation I normally expect a lot of folders and how this hand turned out would have made me sit back and think a lot. |
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deadmoney314
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 3226
Location: grunching through reply posts
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dannyboya
High Card
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I like to check raise in this situation if there is a bet from late position(thin the field). You decide to bet and it is raised and reraised. You are most likely behind to two pair or a set, possible a straight draw. You are getting six to one to call assuming it isn't capped behind you. If you are behind you are drawing to three outs, the kings. But you cannot count them as full outs because of the straight possibility they present. This is a clear fold. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 3586
Location: East Coast
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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About the "donk bet" DM, there are times when the illusion of it can be used as part of the arsenal to set up the check raise later on. Just a simple change of gears. If I flop a monster, like a set on an uncoordinated board, or a straight w/one off connectors, I will on occasion use this play against specific opponents(primarily those that are hyper aggressive w/TPTK, or those that like to represent an A that I KNOW will fire several bullets in the process or against people that know I will represent an A on occasion). In reality, it appears to be a "donk bet" when it really isn't.
I compare it to an often profitable play, when used appropriately, in Omaha. Say I flop the nutflush with lower cards on the board, in position, and it gets checked to me. I'll bet the pot and MP calls. Turn is a blank. MP checks and sometimes I'll check behind him. Granted, I'm giving a free card, but more often than not, the board won't pair, leaving me with the nuts. Now, if MP had a set and was looking to fill up, there's a slight chance he put me on a similar hand or pot steal and will lead out, where I raise. Or if he has a lower flush, similar results. If he understands pot odds, he wasn't going to call the turn anyway, so I don't worry about missed bets. If he checks the river, I'll bet. Sometimes I'll bet the pot or sometimes smaller amounts that set up the crying call. |
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deadmoney314
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 3226
Location: grunching through reply posts
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
About the "donk bet" DM, there are times when the illusion of it can be used as part of the arsenal to set up the check raise later on. Just a simple change of gears. If I flop a monster, like a set on an uncoordinated board, or a straight w/one off connectors, I will on occasion use this play against specific opponents(primarily those that are hyper aggressive w/TPTK, or those that like to represent an A that I KNOW will fire several bullets in the process or against people that know I will represent an A on occasion). In reality, it appears to be a "donk bet" when it really isn't.
I compare it to an often profitable play, when used appropriately, in Omaha. Say I flop the nutflush with lower cards on the board, in position, and it gets checked to me. I'll bet the pot and MP calls. Turn is a blank. MP checks and sometimes I'll check behind him. Granted, I'm giving a free card, but more often than not, the board won't pair, leaving me with the nuts. Now, if MP had a set and was looking to fill up, there's a slight chance he put me on a similar hand or pot steal and will lead out, where I raise. Or if he has a lower flush, similar results. If he understands pot odds, he wasn't going to call the turn anyway, so I don't worry about missed bets. If he checks the river, I'll bet. Sometimes I'll bet the pot or sometimes smaller amounts that set up the crying call. |
I understand what you mean Zophar, but there are too many posts in FLHE that try to sell it as the consistant line to take, and it simply should be ignored except in extreme circumstances--this situation is not one of those extremes. And in your comparison you are putting made hands HU vs TPGK multiway. There is a vast difference between the two and if the aggressor is in late position and you are SB you are the best shot at isolating the aggressor to play for the whole pot, anyone else coming in will be paying out their nose from your check-raise or check 3bet. Also, when and if the aggressor comes over your check-raise you finally get some information. Donkbetting then getting raised tells you very little, AQ could do that easily--and why would you want to give up the lead to a hand like that and keep everyone in a big pot with a small price... there are just too many reasons this is the wrong play here. |
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deadmoney314
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 3226
Location: grunching through reply posts
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sheesh  I thought there was a pfr... my bad. I would still check raise, gives me initiative against all the straight draws and lets you know if someone having a set is a possibility. The table would have to be UBER passive like, AF < 1.0 all around for me to lead out in 1st position. |
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