Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: The Donk Bet

Lately I've been making extra bets hand over fist from a recent rash of donk bets. Even players with decent stats seem to be picking up this habit, just strange and bad (but good for me). Anyone else notice this in flhe? FYI, if you don't understand the phrase "donk bet" then you are a user Wink

I should add that in the last two days I had two separate occasions when someone donk bet me flop turn & river lol.

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject:

Well I'll happily donkbet if I think I'll get some extra value out of the hand.

Example:

I hold 77 in the BB, MP1 raises, co and SB call. I also call.

Flop A 7 3 rainbow.

I'm sure I have the best hand, but a check-raise here followed by leading out on the turn would leave anyone suspicious even if they had AK or A-High, and I might not get my big bet on the turn.

By donkbetting the flop then check-raising the turn, I'm getting an extra big bet out of the hands I have beat, and if MP1 raises behind me then the CO and SB won't have the odds to draw to anything. Also in this scenario, by calling the raise from MP1 rather than reraising, my check on the turn is sure to induce a bet. By the time I have raised my opponent's bet he is committed to check/calling all the way to the river. Any further raises I can reraise.

I only have a small sample size of hands I've played like that, and I've won all bar one of them where I lost to set over set. But in terms of potential pot size, I think thats the best way to go when you're sure you have your opponent over a barrel.

Although sets are not monster hands, particularly on a co-ordinated board as will happen more often than not, I advocate playing true monsters the same way. In an ordinary slowplay you would expect to be raising the turn anyway, but I believe the donkbet on the flop allows you to extract that one extra bet from your opponent when the usual check-raise pattern gives away a little too much information about your hand.

Warning: This may be totally inappropriate for the levels at which you play DM, as 1/2 9max is about the highest I'm willing to go, but I think it's genuinely the best way to get extra value from loose opponents in the micro stakes games.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject:

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject:

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject:

C'mon man I'm trying to be nice. It seems your first example of when you think you should donk bet actually assumes the only other option is check-raise flop--and that was a false diachotomy. Flop donk bets should be at 0%, I can't even think of a situation where it is necessary or +EV to do so, although if I really thought of a specific set of opponents in a specific position I might be able to come up with something but I don't spend time preparing for rare occurances when I play 300-400 hds per hour.

There are however a few instances where a donk bet on the turn should be used but those instances are rare. The most common place for a donk is against an astute opponent on the river when you have made a draw that he is likely to sniff out. If you need explanation for that I'll go into later.

UFO1947 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject:

Dead can you explain Donk bet for me, I'm too lazy

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject:

The donk bet is a postflop bet where you lead OOP (out of position) into an aggressor from the previous betting round. On the flop if there was a preflop raiser that you called and he has position on you, then you lead out at the flop before he has a chance to act you are "donk betting". It got that name because 99 times out of 100 this is a bad play (it may in fact be 100% of the time). It can happen on the turn as well, like if you check/call flop OOP then lead into the bettor from the flop. At least on the turn there are situations where the donk bet is the correct play, like a draw heavy board and you hit a good but vulnerable hand on the turn. A situation where you have someone pegged on a high pocket but you were priced into the blinds with a suited connector and flopped the draw, hit it on the turn while you know there is a good chance your opponent has a set and tends shut down against scare cards--then you must donk. You can see how specific things have to get to use it, and it is an exercise in futility to prepare for those situaitons, you'll already know what to do in that case because you read the situation correctly. Many donks will donk bet to bluff which is really where I think it got its name.

Here is an example:
Donk has XX in BB
You have AK on Button
You raise, donk calls
Flop: A 8 3 rainbow
Donk checks.
You Bet.
Donk calls.
Turn: (A 8 3) T
Donk bets.

Now before you start arguing that donk has a good line here with hands that improved with the T, ask yourself if donk thinks you were going to bet this turn. Seems pretty obvious that you are not going to check turn whether or not you have A. So if donk really has something better than you at this point, why is he donking instead of checkraising where he is guaranteed to get another bet and most likely a call down? This is just a quick analysis of the -EV associated, I'm sure you can already extrapolate other situations if you take your time.

thaevilgenius55 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject:

so what this whole thing is sayin im a DONK! Crying or Very sad

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:

lol, it might say that you donk bet. But its not the end of the world. For all you donk bet enthusiasts I did manage to think of a flop scenario:

You are in EP and LAG is in LP with two or more MP loose/weak opponents. You hold a hand like K Heart

J

and the flop comes
3 Heart

6

8

Now assuming the LAG pfr'sed and you cold called and MPs called priced in, it is time to finally donk so that you get LAG to raise your donk trapping the others in the middle for two on your strong draw (again priced in, you make it -EV for MPs to fold and +EV for you with that many opponents and such a strong draw).

See how difficult it is to find appropriate situations? Again, these are the exceptions not the rule and don't live in fear of the donk. S/he is nearly always giving you more than proper odds to chase and every opportunity to get more value out of your monsters.

bigwheell · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject:

I will Donk when I lead out on the flop and get raised with a hand that I think I am ahead with but not quite sure, such as top pair, decent kicker...

If I think that I am still probably ahead I will more than likely lead the turn betting so as not to give him a free card on the turn...

I have seen it too many times when I will call a flop raise and check the turn only to end up giving a free card and let the other player see the river for free.

Of course the argument can be made I should have 3 bet the flop instead of a donk bet on the turn, but sometimes I just don't feel like it...

That is about the only time I use the Donk Bet, unless I am trying to screw with a player in a HU sit and go or something and change it up a bit...

Those of you that get donk bet by a decent player, doesn't it give you pause for concern when it happens...I know it does for me.

fire_eyes_2k · Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject:

honkythunder · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject:

Hi. My name is Honky and I am a donk better. <Hi Honky>

I donk bet a LOT. Maybe it has been the wrong strategy (hence, the usefullness of the forum). Here's where I use it.

I ALWAYS donk bet a strong draw. Reasons: 1. They might fold the winning hand. 2. If there are enough people in hand it is correct to bet ( I think). 3. If I make the draw people are less likely to call after they see the draw on the board - get their calls in before its obvious.

I USUALLY donk bet a flop with low cards if I have a low pair or paired the crappy flop. Reasons: 1. I want to know if the pf raisor has a high pair of just two high cards. High pair normally reraises, two high cards normally just call - that's information. 2. It's very annoying and may tilt the sucker.

I PREFER these strategies to the check/raise on turn simply because it seems that no one EVER folds to the check/raise on the turn. Because of this I save the turn check/raise for a made hand. Ultimately I use the donk bet for fold equity and information.

This is for .5/1 and 1/2 limit and FWIW this stategy could possibly be horrible since I have never tracked the specific results of these plays nor do I think I possibly could.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:

For all you readers, if this is you, you are leaking...

Full Tilt Poker Game #1402316123: Table Sedwick (6 max) - $1/$2 - Limit Hold'em - 11:01:39 ET - 2006/12/13
Seat 1: protected_identity1 ($80)
Seat 2: protected_identity2 ($105)
Seat 3: DONK-BET! SWEET! ($28.25)
Seat 4: I_am_an_awful_player.com ($53.75)
Seat 5: I_too_am_an_awful_player ($83.50)
Seat 6: deadmoney314 ($34.50)
DONK-BET! SWEET! posts the small blind of $0.50
I_am_an_awful_player.com posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to deadmoney314 [Qh Ts]
I_too_am_an_awful_player folds
deadmoney314 raises to $2
protected_identity2 folds
DONK-BET! SWEET! calls $1.50
I_am_an_awful_player.com folds
*** FLOP *** [5h Ah Ac]
DONK-BET! SWEET! bets $1
deadmoney314 raises to $2
DONK-BET! SWEET! folds
Uncalled bet of $1 returned to deadmoney314
deadmoney314 mucks
deadmoney314 wins the pot ($6.75)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7 | Rake $0.25
Board: [5h Ah Ac]
Seat 1: protected_identity1 is sitting out
Seat 2: protected_identity2 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: DONK-BET! SWEET! (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: I_am_an_awful_player.com (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: I_too_am_an_awful_player didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: deadmoney314 collected ($6.75), mucked

UFO1947 · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject:

So he should have check folded?

deadmoney314 · Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject:

Or he could have tried something like this...

Full Tilt Poker Game #1403117040: Table Toiyabe (6 max) - $1/$2 - Limit Hold'em - 14:57:59 ET - 2006/12/13
Seat 1: DONKBET! YES! ($46.75)
Seat 2: Bystander ($30)
Seat 3: deadmoney314 ($43.75)
Seat 4: bystander2 ($66.25), is sitting out
Seat 5: bystander3 ($45)
Seat 6: donk-tacular ($36)
DONKBET! YES! posts the small blind of $0.50
Bystander posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to deadmoney314 [Kh Jd]
deadmoney314 raises to $2
bystander3 folds
donk-tacular folds
DONKBET! YES! calls $1.50
Bystander has 15 seconds left to act
Bystander folds
*** FLOP *** [3d 6h Ac]
DONKBET! YES! checks
deadmoney314 bets $1
DONKBET! YES! calls $1
*** TURN *** [3d 6h Ac] [Ks]
DONKBET! YES! bets $2
deadmoney314 raises to $4
bystander2 has returned
DONKBET! YES! has 15 seconds left to act
DONKBET! YES! raises to $6
deadmoney314 raises to $8
DONKBET! YES! has 15 seconds left to act
DONKBET! YES! folds
Uncalled bet of $2 returned to deadmoney314
deadmoney314 mucks
deadmoney314 wins the pot ($18.25)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $19 | Rake $0.75
Board: [3d 6h Ac Ks]
Seat 1: DONKBET! YES! (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Bystander (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: deadmoney314 collected ($18.25), mucked
Seat 4: bystander2 is sitting out
Seat 5: bystander3 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: donk-tacular (button) didn't bet (folded)

j/k UFO, in the first example if he believes he is ahead, depending on the strength of his hand he should smooth call flop and pop the turn--or checkraise now depending on how possible turn cards could thwart his ability for a check raise on the turn. If there are too many cards that slow me down on turn or if he sees me as a cautious player he should check-raise now to not only get value but information on the possible range that I have immediately before the streets get expensive. Additionally, if he just isn't sure but knows his hand value is to high to simply check/fold, he can check/call down to the river barring any obvious reads/cards that make him devalue his hand. Sometimes the best play is to let the worse hand lead the entire way instead of getting the worse hand to fold to a checkraise on the flop.

	Full Tilt Poker is licensed by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. © Copyright 2004 - 2005 FullTiltPoker.com., All Rights Reserved