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KGBlovesOreos · Moderator Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 5318 Location: VA

Ok, fine, I admit it. I am a Moneymaker-boomer. Ever since the summer of 2004, I have been nothing but a no-limit junkie, and aside from the occasional seven card stud game, maybe even an Omaha 8/OB game, I have been a slave to the game of all-ins since day one.

My no-limit batteries burnt out in mid-August, and I'm sure you've read how I've ventured my way into the game of fixed-limit hold 'em. Before I began my FLHE journey, I tried to absorb as much knowledge through as many different sources as possible: this forum, books, and magazines. I just wanted to be prepared, that's all, and spending those few weeks (mid-August through early September) scouring all those different outlets of information really gave me a good base to begin from.

One of the key things I learned during that time was that FLHE was a game of conserving/saving bets in, for lack of a better term, "iffy" situations. This was a point that almost every single source stressed to a great degree, and when I plunged into the FLHE tables, I took that advice very seriously. Calling bets on the river with just top pair/weak kicker was a notion that I scoffed at, yet when I looked at my bottom line after my first month, my BB/hr rate was a losing one. I looked back at my HH's, and I saw that the biggest pots I was losing were the ones where I folded on the river to just a single bet with top pair, no matter how big the pot was at that point. This just couldn't be! I mean, if all the books, magazines, and forums said that I should save my bets on my rivers, shouldn't I be winning?

Well yes, I should be winning, but only if I apply this advice to the proper situation.

Playing at .25/.50 FLHE is a place where more than 75% of the players don't know what they're doing. Like me, they are all just beginners, but at least I'm the one who has spent time learning about the game. Therefore, it is likely that my opponents would take weaker hands such as middle/third pair or draws all the way to the river, and they would also be more inclined to bet on the river no matter how vulnerable their hand was.

Now, looking back at the sources I read during my preperation, I can see that the strategy given was more inclined for games that play bigger, not for the microlimits where I roam. If you just begin to start out a game, I recommend that you acquire as many strategical POV's as possible, but don't apply advanced advice at the lower limits. Now by all means, hold on to those lessons and remember them, for when you move up all that information will become of more importance, but sticking to basic ABCD poker the lower you play is probably the best path to take.

NOLEMIKE93 · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:00 am Post subject:

I that post KGB, I am starting to a little FLHE despite not doing any research on it but found this to be true in my limited experience.

sloshedzeus · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:21 am Post subject:

Saving the wasted bets are very important, but you also have to take pot odds more into account in limit. If you have played to the river, there are very few times that you are not getting the proper odds to call. If you are getting 10-1 on that final call you can lose nine out of ten times and still break even.

I am one of the few that have never read a poker book. After playing the game for twenty years I am afraid I will find out I have been doing it wrong all these years. Sort of like Yosamite Sam after he walked off the cliff, if he didn't look down he would not have fallen. I have done fairly well over the years and don't want to ruin anything.

Another thing I do is, I will raise big pairs in early position but never in late position if there are a few callers. They will always call one raise and I don't want to give them the pot odds to call me down with a draw.

On the other hand, in late position I will always raise with a hand like suited connectors because I do want to give myself the pot odds for a draw.

I do mix it up from time to time to keep anyone from getting a read on me but that is the basic rule that has always worked well for me.

Not sure if the pros would agree with me on this, but I really don't want to know. If I look down I might fall.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

WickedCity · High Card Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 7

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

meitiner · Pair Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 21

In low bet no limit there is hardly ever a great lay down to a river bet. I've read that many times and it is true.
I sometimes wonder why people have stayed in the pot and feel they have a chance with one last bluff. Many times I've called, certain that I had lost, only to find that I've won.
The real question is should you still be in the hand when you to the river.

WickedCity · High Card Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 7

Riddim, maybe (actually I know) I am suffering mentally from the constant string of suckouts (gutshot rivers and such) that I would rather win a medium sized pot than lose a large one. I am sure playing big pairs correctly (always raising) is much more profitable in the long run. I feel like a good player and I know that these suckouts are just short-term variance (and I remind myself daily) but I think it is really killing my confidence and thus my ability to play as aggressive as I should.

About raising suited connectors in late position, after reading your response and thinking about it, it seems the only real advantage is disguising your hand which seems like would work much better in higher stakes games.

bigwheell · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:03 am Post subject:

Three times this week I have called a river bet when I thought I was behind and three times I took the pot down with a slightly better hand...

All three times I called that river bet thinking I was going to lose, only to pull the hand down...

Unless you have gotten to the river on a stone cold bluff, It is always worth calling that last bet or raise into you, if you think you may have a shot at the pot...

As far as raising your big PP,

I am an 86% winner with AA over 42000 hands of online limit poker.
74% KK
65% QQ
53% JJ
65% 1010

I think in all of the situations above, you are going to win with your PP more than you will lose with them(at least based on my stats) and they should be raised for value preflop.

meitiner · Pair Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 21

I flopped a set, but the river betting told me I was beaten as no one pushed until the third flush card came.

Texas Hold'em $0.50-$1 (Real Money), #1,251,737,882
Table Colombo, 12 Nov 2006 1:05 PM ET

Seat 1: uhcaa ($16.10 in chips)
Seat 2: cateatdog76 ($18.80 in chips)
Seat 3: red1976 ($34.30 in chips)
Seat 4: bmeitiner [ 10D,10H ] ($28 in chips)
Seat 5: Hartmann1899 ($10.45 in chips)
Seat 6: TouchCure ($67.50 in chips)
Seat 7: richard_s2 ($14.85 in chips)
Seat 8: natarabob ($28.30 in chips)
Seat 9: xNETWALKERx ($29.75 in chips)
Seat 10: Karakeen ($18.25 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
TouchCure posts blind ($0.25), richard_s2 posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
natarabob folds, xNETWALKERx calls $0.50, Karakeen folds, uhcaa bets $1, cateatdog76 folds, red1976 calls $1, bmeitiner calls $1, Hartmann1899 folds, TouchCure folds, richard_s2 folds, xNETWALKERx calls $0.50.

FLOP [board cards 5D,10C,JD ]
xNETWALKERx checks, uhcaa bets $0.50, red1976 calls $0.50, bmeitiner calls $0.50, xNETWALKERx folds.

TURN [board cards 5D,10C,JD,AH ]
uhcaa bets $1, red1976 calls $1, bmeitiner bets $2, uhcaa calls $1, red1976 calls $1.

RIVER [board cards 5D,10C,JD,AH,9D ]
uhcaa bets $1, red1976 bets $2, bmeitiner calls $2, uhcaa bets $2, red1976 bets $2, bmeitiner calls $2, uhcaa calls $1.

SHOWDOWN
red1976 shows [ AC,9S ]
bmeitiner shows [ 10D,10H ]
uhcaa mucks cards [ 9C,JH ]
bmeitiner wins $23.75.

griffinlord · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject:

This is definitely one of those "know your opponent" areas. Some folks just love to call you down if they think you're bluffing too often...even if they can't beat a bluff. Some love to make a play when a scare card hits. Some will chase any draw to the end and fold if it misses.

They suck out on us sometimes, but we love them.

Of course there are always those that never call without a draw and never bet without a made hand.

We love them too. They go away and leave dead money in the pot or make it clear that we should fold.

Paprika · Full House Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

Raising Big PP's- I am all for raising with them in any position. You don't get them that much and you want to get as much dead money in the pot from people calling with bad cards as you can.

Raising suited connectors late position-Usually I don't ;ike this move unless you are going for the deception thing and mixing up your play by not always raising with just big pairs and or big cards. While you're at it, occasionally throwing in a raise with a small or medium PP is not a bad idea as long as you don't over do it. Most of the time though at the lower limits, most players don't catch on that you are doing this because they just don't really pay attention to what moves you are making.

As far as low limit HE goes, I just finished reading Jennifer Harman's section in SS2 on LHE and while very good, I can see how is would apply a lot more to higher limits of play. Good section though and well-written. Something to file and keep for hopefully a later date when all of us may want to make a move upwards and onward! For now, I am sticking with my SSHE book for my strategy and this forum as well.

luihed · Royal Flush Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 552

dmoore1998 · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject:

Going from NLHE to FLHE the best advice I've heard so far has been from Howard Lederer I believe. He said that in NL people call the river bets with mediocre hands far too often and in FL people fold on the river with mediocre hands far too often. The biggest point about "saving bets" in my opinion is just not betting the river without what you feel is definitely the best hand. Check-call is often the right play. This is conserving one big bet in relation to you betting out and getting raised then calling the raise. Even in bigger games it's often quite correct to check-call the river. Just because the flush hits the river and you think your opponent was on the flush draw you might still have to call depending on the size of the pot. If being right 1 in 5 times makes you a winner then you've gotta do it, because it's likely that at least occasionally they are betting the river to represent the flush when in reality they have 2-pair weaker than your 2-pair or something like that. (or hell because they think 2 pair is good and don't think you have the flush since they checked, not even a steal move, they just think they're ahead).

The place to be doing most of your folding is pre-flop and on the flop before the bets get larger. Once you get to the river, if you're heads-up with a hand that has any decent chance of being a winner you generally are making the right play by checking or calling a single bet.

Paprika · Full House Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

I agree. I folded twice a few nights ago on the river just because I was holding something like an A3s and folded on the river because of the board and some action. I would have won the pot with my pair of A's with a bad kicker. One other time the same night it happened with a str8 and flush draw out on the board, wih action as well. My small 2 pair would have won that one as well. Sometimes just looking at the board scares me off. This one area that I am trying to improve in. The latter one didnt bother me as much because of all the action and the draws out there.I t sucks losing a few big pots vs. a few BB's.

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