Online Poker Forum - KK vs AA

ksuhart · Pair Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 21

5.50 SNG, 4 players left, top 3 pay...
Would anyone have not pushed here, let alone folded?

PokerStars Game #2592935188: Tournament #12652623, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/09/16 - 22:18:00 (ET)
Table '12652623 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 4: Zathros (2615 in chips)
Seat 5: carlosjackal (4350 in chips)
Seat 6: lucky_shasha (3030 in chips)
Seat 7: ksuhart (3505 in chips)
Zathros: posts the ante 25
carlosjackal: posts the ante 25
lucky_shasha: posts the ante 25
ksuhart: posts the ante 25
carlosjackal: posts small blind 100
lucky_shasha: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ksuhart [Kd Kh]
ksuhart: raises 400 to 600
Zathros: folds
carlosjackal: folds
lucky_shasha: raises 600 to 1200
ksuhart: raises 2280 to 3480 and is all-in
lucky_shasha: calls 1805 and is all-in
carlosjackal said, "have u decided?"
*** FLOP *** [9c Qh 6h]
*** TURN *** [9c Qh 6h] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [9c Qh 6h Ad] [3d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
lucky_shasha: shows [As Ac] (three of a kind, Aces)
ksuhart: shows [Kd Kh] (a pair of Kings)
lucky_shasha collected 6210 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6210 | Rake 0
Board [9c Qh 6h Ad 3d]
Seat 4: Zathros (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: carlosjackal (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: lucky_shasha (big blind) showed [As Ac] and won (6210) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 7: ksuhart showed [Kd Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings

GripHoldOn · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject:

You have 17.5 BB, KK is impossible to fold here. Moving in is the obvious and correct play.

ksuhart · Pair Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 21

Thanks for the input, it sure seemed like the obvious play to me, as I didn't even hesitate... But in hindsight, it clearly was the incorrect play given that my opponent had AA Confused

Just curious though, what are the odds of KK and AA being dealt out at the same time at a four handed table?

End3r · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:07 am Post subject:

those odds are pretty small, and that's why pusing it all in the middle was correct, even on the bubble

GTKID · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject:

KK vs AA is a tough scenario that almost nobody online can avoid, and never in a tournamnet format as there aren't enough chips to justify mucking kings preflop.

Zuchov · Royal Flush Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 646

Indeed. Even in a cash game, it's very, very hard (and usually wrong) to fold KK preflop. It is almost always right and justifiable to go (or call) all in with KK, even if you suspect there's a chance the other guy has AA. (There are rare cases when you'll know, or should know tha the other guy has rockets, but those are few and far between.) So when you get all in preflop with KK and see the other guy throw up AA, you just have to shake it off, tell yourself you got unlucky, and move on.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Moderator Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 9112 Location: Mypos

I was taught to never fold KK pre-flop.

The reason being, if you folded KK every time you were reraised, you'd be folding the best hand most of the time. When you have KK, someone will have AA only 4% of the time. So it's better to just play them like aces, and take the beat when someone actually does have AA.

ksuhart · Pair Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 21

Well, I doubt I'll ever be good enough to fold KK preflop in any situation so it's a moot point. I know it was the correct play to push, stung just the same though. Thanks again for the advice. After reading your posts and implementing some of the things you've suggested I've actually improved my game online and in live play by leaps and bounds in a very short time Very Happy

Pacey Witter · Two Pair Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 69

i think its 19.5-1 that if u hold kings someone else has aces, but i assume it depends on the number of people at the table too.

iq3183 · High Card Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2

if i had KK and i get into a raising war preflop with another player, i will always push all-in. if he shows AA then i lose and it just wasnt my tourney. and i wouldn't have any regrets.

MrUnderhill · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject:

You were in a situation that gave you two options fold and hope to make the money like a Chicken!@#$ or play smart agressive poker. You made the right play. Sometimes you run into aces and there is nothing you can do.

straylight · High Card Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Posts: 10

KGBlovesOreos · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:44 am Post subject:

never fold KK preflop in a tournament... chips are hard to come by, and the odds of the other person having aces are below 5 percent... play the odds and push, never EVER fold...

Roodiculi · High Card Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 1

Recent play by Daniel Negreanu at the Borgata as mentioned in his blog talking about folding KK pre-flop. Did he make the correct play?

"I looked down at KK in the big blind and considered smooth calling to set a trap for him, but then felt it might be better to just protect my hand now and made it 3000 to go, leaving myself with 10,450 after the flop.

The first two players folded and the button immediately stuck it all in. "Oh no," I thought, "does this guy really have aces?"

I started talking aloud as I often do looking for a reaction. Wow, did I ever get one. My opponent wasn't bluffing, that much was certain. He seemed like an honest guy and was almost telling me that he had me beat. In fact, he did tell me that when he said, "There is no way you can beat this hand. It's impossible" he said.

He gave me every indication that he had aces, and with a fourth raise before the flop there was no reason for me to think otherwise.

With 10,450 in chips and the blinds only at 50-100 I felt like I could easily avoid this hand and chop my way back to even. I folded my KK face up and my opponent, who also promised he'd show me turned over... QQ!

Oh brother, that sucked. The first time I ever folded KK before the flop and I had to be wrong! Looking back, though, I was still proud of myself for going with what I felt was the right play given the information I had. I'd hate to say I'd do it again if I had to since it was the wrong move, but man, I was well over 90% sure I was looking at AA."

MFDfireguy · High Card Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 8

Here's one... I was in a ring game a few weeks back, and got the pocket Kings. I threw a big raise, everyone except my girlfriend at the other side ofthe table calls. I'm thinking I've got her this time. Flop: Q-x-x. I throw a monster raise thinking it would scare her off. Nope. She calls. I put her on Queens at that point. 4th and 5th turn up trash, so I put her all in. She CALLED! I say to her (with all other 8 players there) "sorry sweetie as I flip the Kings and turn towards my pot, and she replies, "no, sorry to you sweetie" and turns the Rockets... AAAHHHH!!!!! She didn't raise or push the aces. But even if she had been aggressive, I wouldn't have folded the kings. not a chance. You gotta play them hard, and once in a while, you'll pay, but in the long run, you'll get paid. Fireguy

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