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HCAFC
High Card
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Hull, England
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 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: Big Slick - Help 4 The Confused... |
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Hi all, I'm after your thoughts, advice and severe criticism...
HAND #1
Early blind level ($40/$80) with an average stack. Looked down to see AKo when on the button. After only one mid position limper I decided to also limp in a hope to retain some customers. The SB folded and the BB checked. We all had fairly level chip stacks and I was pleased to see a K75 rainbow flop. The BB immediately went all-in! The middle position limper folded and I was left with a decision to make. What did he have... AK, Kx, two pair, a set or nothing? The raiser certainly wasn't a fish and seemed to be a solid player based on the few hands I'd seen him play.
What would you have done and why?
HAND #2
Blinds are $50/$100 and I'm in early position with AKo and 1450 chips. I raised the going to $350, which deterred all but two people. Both blinds folded, leaving $1200 in the pot. The flop brought J83 rainbow, with me first to act. To be honest I wasn't sure what to do! Should I check, bet around $200-400 or push all my chips into the middle? Both opponents were decent players that were unlikely to call my pre-flop raise with a small pair or rags, so I'm only worried about the J or a high pair (AA-TT).
What would you have done and why?
ATB
HCAFC |
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djcolts
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Big Slick - Help 4 The Confused... |
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| HCAFC wrote: |
Hi all, I'm after your thoughts, advice and severe criticism...
HAND #1
Early blind level ($40/$80) with an average stack. Looked down to see AKo when on the button. After only one mid position limper I decided to also limp in a hope to retain some customers. The SB folded and the BB checked. We all had fairly level chip stacks and I was pleased to see a K75 rainbow flop. The BB immediately went all-in! The middle position limper folded and I was left with a decision to make. What did he have... AK, Kx, two pair, a set or nothing? The raiser certainly wasn't a fish and seemed to be a solid player based on the few hands I'd seen him play.
What would you have done and why?
HAND #2
Blinds are $50/$100 and I'm in early position with AKo and 1450 chips. I raised the going to $350, which deterred all but two people. Both blinds folded, leaving $1200 in the pot. The flop brought J83 rainbow, with me first to act. To be honest I wasn't sure what to do! Should I check, bet around $200-400 or push all my chips into the middle? Both opponents were decent players that were unlikely to call my pre-flop raise with a small pair or rags, so I'm only worried about the J or a high pair (AA-TT).
What would you have done and why?
ATB
HCAFC |
Hand #1 - You needed to raise to at least 300 there. With AKo, your goal is to limit the number of people in the pot to hopefully 1 opponent - that is where that hand works best. You are a slight underdog/coin flip to every pocket pair QQ or lower, and a favorite over all drawing hands. If MP (or BB) has AA or KK, they'd likely let you know after you raised that they have it.
With limping - you don't know what BB has (or anyone else). With the raise, BB may have folded, and you'd either pick up the pot pre-flop (which with AKo is a perfectly good result) or likely be 1 on 1 with MP, and with position. This will make your hand easier to play post-flop, too.
Hand #2 - This one is harder - and depends on your table image and your opponents - but I think the default play is checking here. Your position is bad, and with a check - worst case, someone bets, you fold, and still have enough chips to do some damage later in the SNG.
If you bet 300 (which looks like a weak bet anyway), and one of the opponents left raises you all-in, you'd lose another 25+% of your stack.
If you push all-in - you may win the pot, or you may get busted - but you really don't know what the other 2 players likely have because of your position. I think you could do a check-raise on the flop if you have a specific read on one of the opponents and see what they do - but this is certainly not the default case - and takes some guts to do this this early in the SNG.
I'd say at least 2/3rds of the time checking is the best play.
I'd be interested to see what some of the more experienced players say. |
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GripHoldOn
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2098
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Big Slick - Help 4 The Confused... |
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| HCAFC wrote: |
Hi all, I'm after your thoughts, advice and severe criticism...
HAND #1
Early blind level ($40/$80) with an average stack. Looked down to see AKo when on the button. After only one mid position limper I decided to also limp in a hope to retain some customers. |
Sometimes it's okay to limp with AK preflop, but certainly not for the reason you gave here. AK is a strong hand, but AA is much stronger, and even with AA, I rarely will take a cheap flop in a multiway pot because the chances of at least one person outdrawing me is much higher than it is when I am heads up. Think about it. You wanted to retain some "customers." Let's say we have AA. On what types of boards is someone with 64 going to put a lot of money into the pot against our AA with? 6 4 K? 3 5 2? 4 4 J? What about 4 K T? He'll probably play with us on any of those first three flops, but probably not on the fourth. The problem is that we let him see those flops for free, knowing he's going to play the hand after the flop if and only if he has us beat. He won't flop a better hand than our aces often, but if he doesn't he simply will throw his hand away, but if he does he will break us. For this reason, we want players with these types of hands either folding preflop or putting a lot of money in before the flop so that we will be winning much more from them when they fold after the flop. |
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searfoss
Two Pair
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hand #1. If player 1 is solid then he probably would not have checked with mid to high pair, nor would he have bet all in with a hand better than TPTK in first position on the flop. Perhaps he had fives or maybe sevens and decided to see a free flop, but this would not explain a solid player making such a move because such a strong hand would want callers. More likely he has kx or a drawing hand. I say this because he is trying to buy the pot right there. If he has a set or two pair and bets all in, then he is not a solid player.
So, if you're right that he is solid you should call, because if he had a better hand than TPTK, he'd either value bet or slow play. Trust your read on him and call. If your read turns out to be wrong then adjust your conclusions accordingly in future tournaments.
Hand #2. Harrington advises that you should make a continuation bet 50 - 60% of the time here. I'd chose to check, however, because you have two opponents in better position and the flop completely missed you. Consider a check-raise if you think they are stealing. But there is nothing wrong with raising AK pre-flop, only to fold on the flop when you completely miss. I'd check, and decide whether to fold, call, or raise after I see what the other two do. I'd probably check-fold. |
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KGBlovesOreos
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 5552
Location: lala land
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Big Slick - Help 4 The Confused... |
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| HCAFC wrote: |
Hi all, I'm after your thoughts, advice and severe criticism...
HAND #1
Early blind level ($40/$80) with an average stack. Looked down to see AKo when on the button. After only one mid position limper I decided to also limp in a hope to retain some customers. The SB folded and the BB checked. We all had fairly level chip stacks and I was pleased to see a K75 rainbow flop. The BB immediately went all-in! The middle position limper folded and I was left with a decision to make. What did he have... AK, Kx, two pair, a set or nothing? The raiser certainly wasn't a fish and seemed to be a solid player based on the few hands I'd seen him play.
What would you have done and why?
HAND #2
Blinds are $50/$100 and I'm in early position with AKo and 1450 chips. I raised the going to $350, which deterred all but two people. Both blinds folded, leaving $1200 in the pot. The flop brought J83 rainbow, with me first to act. To be honest I wasn't sure what to do! Should I check, bet around $200-400 or push all my chips into the middle? Both opponents were decent players that were unlikely to call my pre-flop raise with a small pair or rags, so I'm only worried about the J or a high pair (AA-TT).
What would you have done and why?
ATB
HCAFC |
in the first situation, i would just fold b/c i dont have enough information to justify a call there... the only time i would call would be in a cash game and a short stack made that move...
in situation 2, i would go ahead and bet here to follow up my preflop aggression... if you bet enough, neither of your opponents will call here unless they had something decent... if one of them calls you, you are probably beat, and you would have to check on the turn unless you pair one of your cards... |
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leighs
Four of a Kind
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 301
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Hand #1
With AK you don't really want customers because if you miss the flop then you just have A high. A raise to 3 or 4x the BB will likely get rid of the marginal hands and at least make it a heads up pot. With multiple limpers in the early stages, I will sometimes just call from LP with AK because I would have to commit too many chips to make people fold, I have position, and it can give my play some deception that could be useful later on.
Once you are in the situation after the flop, I would be suspicious that the all in does not represent strength but there is no point in going broke on a hand where you only invested the minimum so far.
Hand #2
Against 2 opponents and 1100 chips left with 50/100 blinds, I think check-folding is a good play. Any significant bet into a 1200 chip pot uses up too much of your stack. If one player folds and the other makes a smallish bet that looks like a steal attempt, you could check-raise all in but I think this play would work better if the pot was smaller in relation to your stack. |
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KGBlovesOreos
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 5552
Location: lala land
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| leighs wrote: |
Hand #2
Against 2 opponents and 1100 chips left with 50/100 blinds, I think check-folding is a good play. Any significant bet into a 1200 chip pot uses up too much of your stack. If one player folds and the other makes a smallish bet that looks like a steal attempt, you could check-raise all in but I think this play would work better if the pot was smaller in relation to your stack. |
lol, i wish there were a check-fold button for live games... it would make things easier when i gotta run to the bathroom...  |
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Funkay Flex
Straight Flush
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 487
Location: VA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| check-folding? has that become an official new term? LoL, you know you are an internet player when you say "check-folding" |
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Match42
High Card
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| i can see limping with AK if the table is tight, but i agree that some sort of raise (more than min...mostly because i hate min raises) would be the best senario. |
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UrbanMeyer1
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 720
Location: Gainesville, FL (The Swamp)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Big Slick - Help 4 The Confused... |
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| HCAFC wrote: |
Hi all, I'm after your thoughts, advice and severe criticism...
HAND #1
Early blind level ($40/$80) with an average stack. Looked down to see AKo when on the button. After only one mid position limper I decided to also limp in a hope to retain some customers. The SB folded and the BB checked. We all had fairly level chip stacks and I was pleased to see a K75 rainbow flop. The BB immediately went all-in! The middle position limper folded and I was left with a decision to make. What did he have... AK, Kx, two pair, a set or nothing? The raiser certainly wasn't a fish and seemed to be a solid player based on the few hands I'd seen him play.
What would you have done and why?
HAND #2
Blinds are $50/$100 and I'm in early position with AKo and 1450 chips. I raised the going to $350, which deterred all but two people. Both blinds folded, leaving $1200 in the pot. The flop brought J83 rainbow, with me first to act. To be honest I wasn't sure what to do! Should I check, bet around $200-400 or push all my chips into the middle? Both opponents were decent players that were unlikely to call my pre-flop raise with a small pair or rags, so I'm only worried about the J or a high pair (AA-TT).
What would you have done and why?
ATB
HCAFC |
Post what levels these are too.
1)AK isn't invincible, but based on your position and the fact that's its not level 1, you should definately be raising in position. It's a bit stronger based on the blind level and position. Make it 4x to go based on those factors.
2) You most certainly should check. Putting out a continuation bet in this spot would put you all in. Pairs are possible and so is a J. Unfortunately check/fold from here. |
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iuz the old
Three of a Kind
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 88
Location: chicago
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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1st hand is a fold - I think you are up against a BB special (junk 2 pair or Kx two pair) who is trolling for a king to kill. Take it as a salutory lesson on why you raise with AK (same reason you raise any good hand - to get rid of the blinds).
2nd hand is a check fold - betting a missed flop out of position against two opponents when it pot commits you is suicide. |
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