Online Poker Forum - drawing hands

markfly · High Card Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk

a little help if you please..... i admit to being a newbie having only played nlhe for about eight months. I play mostly 11$ s+gs and have made what i think to be a small profit of 10 times my initial buy in. But apparently my play sucks! this may or may not be true but at this stage every game is a learning curve and usually a steep one.

A recent example, i'm in the bb for $100 and player 1 raises minimum, a particularily odd amount. Everybody folds to me with Ace 9 h. I re-raise, to find out where i am, to $450 figuring if i'm beat this will save me money in the long run. Forgive my logic but it kinda works for me. He flat calls which was no help other than the fact he probably had a big drawing hand or pp.

The flop comes Ace spades, King hearts, queen hearts.

He bets $250. I bet my whole stack, which was roughly the size of the pot.
He calls showing A K off.
Turn was 2 clubs
River 4 hearts.

You would not believe the barage of abuse i got. Was my play wrong? My opinion was that even though i had top pair, without the 2 hearts on the board i would have checked it down if he hadn't bet and likely folded 2 any sizable play. Apparently i'm a retard. But such is life. Comments would be good. thank you

Iwineverypot · Flush Joined: 21 Aug 2005 Posts: 131

a 2x raise in early position means they have a good hand - they don't want to force anyone out with a big bet - they want calllers. Also just think, he's in early position raising, and all you have is ace 9. Given that I'd need alot more information about this hand(stack sizes,, etc) I'd say that reraising with A9 is not a great play. If you wanted to play since u were in the blind u could've just called and see what happened, but a raise from first position usually indicates a hand, probably better than A9. Just think about it - which hands would u raise with in early position? And with a flop like that, i'd definitely fold becuase of the straight draw, the flush draw, the fact that someone with 2 high cards probably flopped 2 pair, and the fact that even if he has ace - x, his kicker is probably beating yours just because of the fact that he raised from early position, and he's not doing that with A-8 or lower. Overall, i'd probably hvae called just because of the pot odds(paying 100 to see a pot of 500 are very good odds), but definitely thrown the hand away after that flop or attempted to check it down.

ksuhart · Pair Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 21

I agree that a call preflop would have been a better play(other than the fold) depending on how your opponent has been playing, but Iwineverypot, I'm confused as to what flush draw he would need to be afraid off since he had the Ah 9h

???

If you were short stacked at this point, it is definitely a hand to take a stand on and put your chips in...

Iwineverypot · Flush Joined: 21 Aug 2005 Posts: 131

I misread the hand, thought he had A9o for some reason. I guess it's not a terrible play, but you're still only about 30 some odd percent to hit your flush within the next 2 cards. But show the hand history, there are too many factors that could completely change your play here.

torgeauxSA · Flush Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 137

BOYNAMEDSUE · Moderator Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 9112 Location: Mypos

Agreed.

Min. raises don't necessarily mean strength online. I've seen people raise the min, while the BB, and 4 callers (me being one of them). I fold, 'cause it looks like they're sweetening the pot with a very good hand, only to find out they had K6.

markfly · High Card Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 11 Location: uk

appreciate all the responses. No hand history to offer but i was pretty equal short stack with 3 other players. Player 1 was very loose and aggressive. He was raising from utg with 10 jack os and jack 9 etc. He was chip leader wiping out 2 players with one hand (the utg raise of 10 jack) after calling an all in with tp weak kicker. Player 2 had pp queens and lost 2 runner runner 10 jack. Player 3 had ace jack and lost. Player 2 had legitimate hand with overpair but was reluctant to push in fearing perhaps a higher pair or set but eventually called and received a rough deal from the turn and river. Every hand we were faced with a raise from player 1, which i don't have a problem with, he's just playing the game. He only raised with a good solid holding once. And he showed down almost every hand no matter how terrible! I think his favourite phrase was 'scared money doesn't make money'. sterling advice.

No need for any other advice unless this changes my actions. To all those that responded in kind i thank you and to all those that read and frowned i appreciate that you allowed me to keep a little dignity by not replying. Laughing

iuz the old · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject:

Early position min raisers often have small to middle pairs , if big hands dont raise in early position they limp more often than min raise.

GripHoldOn · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject:

To find out where you are I usually like to make a raise of at least 2 times the bet. So if at 50-100 blinds he made it 200 to go, I would like to make it at least 600 to go, and probably more if I am going to put real pressure on my opponent. The problem with this play in these sit and goes is you don't have the chips to make these kind of raises. 600 represents more than a third of your stack and I hate comitting that much without any real read with just A9. Just call here. If you had AJ or AQ, your play is okay, but I still recommend raising more than you did.

CurlingZone · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject:

Definently not a play you deserve to be berated by the peanut gallery for. The reasoning for your re-raise was right, maybe not the card you were holding. Though you did get the info you require to move ahead, and that was he wasn't holding AA.

In the $10 SitnGos, its very difficult on where to put players on how they raise. Min raise is sometimes strength, sometimes just how that player raises. And people at this level often don't know the difference between playing a hand UTG and on the Button.

I like the reraise for information, and the push on the flop, isn't bad either. You are still taking a chance that he has a low pp, and your flush draw can still win you the hand if you are currently beat.

His loose-aggressive play that you describe actually makes your push a very good play, and this time he actually had a hand. He was right about one thing though, the 'scared money doesn't make money' line.

Pacey Witter · Two Pair Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 69

the problem with a lot of players online in this situation is they say-oooh ak big hand im raising, regardless of position, & they just click on that min raise button (which i think should be outlawed-lol) so its real difficult to get a read on why they raised only the min, are they trying to get more people in the pot, did they just get excited cuz they saw a big hand in front of em, do they even pay attention to position. unfortunately a lot of times online a min raise from utg could mean k10, 33, ace-2, etc just as it could mean ak, ofcourse that was a dangerous flop so u were probably better off just folding post flop or trying to check down. Sometimes its very easy to outthink yourself & give the other guy too much credit, ofcourse not in this situation, but many times u will sit there saying-" why did he just raise min from utg, is he slowplaying a monster?" when most of the time its probably just someone who sees a good hand & doesnt take the time to figure out the proper amount to raise they just click the 2x bb raise, nonetheless there are those players who will min raise for a reason, however i think at the $11 level those players arent as common.

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