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Paprika · Full House Joined: 09 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

Played some $2-4 LHE last night in a local card room for the 3rd time in a few weeks. This is pretty much the lowest limit spread around here except for the occasional $1-2 games at times. A few points then a few questions that I think will be of intersest to those who are playing at the lower limits trying to work our way up to higher ones:

1. Obviously, the play is really bad. At a 9 seater usually at least 6 or more seeing every flop. Normally more than 6

2. People are playing any Ax, any paint card with anything, any connected cards in any POS, any 2 suited cards(connected or not).

3. People stay in for a raise from any position, no matter who the player is or what position the raiser is at.

4. As one would expect, there are some large pots won with ridiculous hands that should not have even been seeing a flop like 95s and catching a flush or a str8 on the river etc. This even with bets and multiple raises.

5. My friend and I who played at these tables last night played tight-Agg. I was card-dead all night. He got some good starting hands, would raise PF with them, get a ton of callers, get top pair top kicker on the flop, bet it out & or raise, get a bunch of callers only to lose with top 2 pair to a hand like the one I just described.

I have had 1 out of 3 winning sessions at this limit but I had to make Q's full to do it. I know that this is kind of what one gets playing limit with a lot of begginers and if it were NLHE, large PF raises of 3-5X the BB would keep a lot of these fishermen out. Questions:

1. Is this game beatable with so many seeing every flop or is it a waste of $ and time?

2. If I am going to play at this level with this kind of a loose-Passive table, should I open up my starting hand requirements a lot more and see lot more flops or just sit back and play tight-Agg like I normally do? I hate playing hands like J7o any time but that was a typical starting hand here.

3. Are higher limits than this, say 3-8, 4-8 and higher this loose as well? Is it just a limit vs. NLHE thing?

Here is a typical hand from last night: I am on the button with QKo, I call as did about 8 others. Flop comes 557 rainbow, it goes bet, call, call, call, call, to me(this is an no brainer fold)I fold, turn comes a 9(now glad I folded for sure)with this many in I figured that someone had a set, flush and a srt8 draw if not already the str8. It goes bet, call....... river comes a Q not giving anyone a flush. One bet, 2 callers, the winning hand shows up A9o giving her 9's & 5's with an ACce kicker. She had nothing on the flop but a pair of 5's with an A kicker. Pretty lame. I would have won the whole thing with my marginal hand. Not really a bad beat story but it has me a bit frustrated.

PS. Tells-Here are the bigger ones: People grabbing for chips to call or bet way before their turn to act, People grabbing chips right after they check the hole cards, rechecking cards a lot.

Any tips, suggestions and or comments would be deemed as cool! Thanks

griffinlord · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject:

Depending on where you are and who the opponents are the games can be pretty loose at 3/6.

With lots of bets in before the flop you can open up your starting hand requirements considerably. Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones is a quick introduction to play in these low limit crazy games and Small Stakes Holdem by Miller, Sklansky, and Mxxxxxx is a more advanced version.

Even with proper play you still have to beat not only multiple crazy opponents, but the rake as well. Normally that is pretty tough at 2/4. But it is a good place to learn and practice.

Riddim · Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject:

I'm not sober right now, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd guess that you're folding way too often when you've hit a weak draw in a big pot. If you haven't already read SSHE that griffin already mentioned, pick it up as fast as you can if you're into poker books. Until then, keep in mind that losing a bet or two with the worst hand is usually a much smaller mistake than losing a whole pot by folding the best hand in loose games with big average pots.

Paprika · Full House Joined: 09 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

Great points. Thanks to you both.

I think one of my problems is from playing online, I have become rather robotic & predictable in my play at times. I think I need to switch gears a bit more perhaps. I am definitely going to start opening up my starting hand selection a lot.

So, is the live $2-4 LHE game worth playing? I know that with all the callers that some of the pots can get good sized to contend for, even with the rake? Wonder if I should stick with NLHE and 0maha8 in live play. You'd think that it would be nicer to play with people who don't know how to play thinking that it is easier to get their dough, but with the unpredictablility of their play it can be tough to put players on hands and know what they may be holding at times.

bigwheell · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:16 am Post subject:

2-4 is beatable, but you are going to have to lower the value of top pair hands...Open up your game and start playing suited connectors, connectors, play pocket pair hoping for a set, and more potential flush cards. Chase your straights and flushes when it looks like 3-4 people will be at least going to the river, you should win enough of those to come out ahead. I would still play your AK's and high PP, but do not expect to win the majority of the time with them, as you will get outdrawn quite a bit if you make it to the river with just top pair.

Below is a hand you would play strongly if you were playing TA as you say you were:

You have AK with a flop of A78, this hand is probably not going to win unimproved at the river. Too many weak players playing weak cards and going to far with them. You are going to lose to two pair or a goofy looking straight just about every time.

I have played 2-4 in Vegas 3 times and once in Winnipeg Canada. I lost $70 the first time, and came out ahead the second and third times and broke even the last time up in Winnipeg. Overall, I am up about $110 in about 12 hours of play. When you get starting catching cards, you can make money in a hurry.

3-6 is just as loose and mostly full of weaker players

4-8 you still see the weaker players here, but for the most part, play tightens up as it seems like money matters more to people at this level

5-10 gets pretty agressive and you will spot only a few weak players at these tables...The aggressive players eat up their money rather quickly and they do not stay long.

Paprika · Full House Joined: 09 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

Thanks BW. With a hand like the one you described here, do you still want to bet and or raise it most of the way or would you just check call it if it doesn't improve past the high pair? Even though it is TPTK, like you stated it probably won't win with a bunch in on the hand. Obviously you would want to at least stay in with this flop, but how far I guess depends on what other cards come out

bigwheell · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject:

Depending on how people at the table are playing, I would probably go to the river betting with it. If you are still getting 2-3 people calling you down to the river, I would probably check the river to save yourself from getting raised in case someone is slowplaying you(seems like all players love to do this at the lower levels).

I think would go to the river most of the time with top pair top kicker. I may even be raising if I have other possibilities in the hand such as backdoor straights or flushes, but you have to realize when you are probably beat and save the chips.

If you can win roughly 40% of the time at the showdown with your top pair top kicker, I think you will come out money ahead in the long run.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject:

I missed this thread before but yes 2/4 is beatable, in fact live 2/4 is where I got my start but you need to understand the long run. If you have 3 extra people in the pot calling your UTG raise and you hit top pair on the flop--your results may differ from statistical analysis for a while, this could be a week or a year or 2 years before you begin to see the long run results. It is important to not reinforce bad habits like limping UTG w/AK because of short term losses where you got burned on the river.
The good news is the people who ignore strategy and cold call a lot end up adding extra money to the pot for which your equity is great for, they are the classic example of "deadmoney". One of the problems you are encountering is the schooling effect where too many fish make it harder for a premium hand to not only hold up but nearly impossible to outplay people who come from the "show me" state. This is OK though because even though your premium hands will get sucked out on more, the pots you do win will be much larger in compensation. This comes down to increased variance and the reason I play online now. When you can see 600 hands in an hour vs 25 hands per hour (25 if you are lucky), variance is reduced much more quickly and skill prevails.
If you do insist on playing live, which I will occasionally do to inspire my game, you must learn how to read people. At 2/4 its all about classifying different types of fish and knowing what tells are likely to mean something. Caro's book of tells is a good start but not the be all end all of tells. Once you see certain "newb" patterns appearing you will make much more quality decisions which will further offset the variance and optimize your time spent at such a slow pace.
You might want to see if the floorman will allow you to multi-table, like picking the corner seats at 4 adjacent tables and move from table to table to play Wink

Lastly, I think the way a game plays depends a lot on the chips used. For instance at my card club the 2/4 3/6 4/8 are all $1 chip tables and 6/12 is the beginning of "yellow" chips worth $2 and the first place where play is noticably better (but still awful).
2/4 is the best for fish, and I think 3/6 tends to play pretty good and if I can't get a yellow chip game I'll be there because the chip structure is similar to 6/12. 4/8 on the other hand, if $1 chips are used, makes people a lot looser than normal--this is because the pot sizes grow enormous using $1 chips as do people's stacks. Psychologically I think it makes a difference on players. I actually skipped 4/8 in the past because of the extra time involved in stacking chips.
Hope this helps Smile

Paprika · Full House Joined: 09 Feb 2006 Posts: 194

I was wondering what those yellows were today! Great point. Throwing in $1 chips is easier than a higher denomination.

Played today again and on the 2nd hand I got AA utg, raised it, everyone folded to me. Strange for 2-4 eh? This table was tight for a 2-4 Still about 3 or 4 bad players in the mix thatIcould spot in a few hands. Also was able to spot a few good players which is rare here at this level.

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