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chalmer · Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: Correct play with KK?

This hand took place in a $25 buy-in NL Hold'em tournament at Pechanga Casino. It was still early in the game with the blinds increasing only once to $50-$100. I had close to my starting stack of $2500 in chips when I was dealt Kc Kd in late position. The player under the gun raised to $350 and every one folded to me. I reraised to $700 and only the original raiser called. The pot was now at $1550. The flop came 8 high with 2 clubs. My opponent immediately went all-in with slightly more chips than I had. I put him on a good pocket pair like Jacks with an outside chance he might have Aces. I quickly called and he turned over Ac Jc. He had one over card and a nut flush draw where as I had a made hand. Honestly, I didn't like to see him with that hand because I was only about 57% to win. Unfortunately he hit his flush and I lost. Did I play this hand correctly throughout or was there something I could have done better?

Zuchov · Royal Flush Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 646

You did fine. I just want to point out that by only re-raising the min raise, you give your opponent the proper odds to call you with almost two cards, so don't do that unless you have a hand that's strong enough to handle giving those odds... and KK is such a hand.

CoolFin69 · Flush Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 126

Zuchov · Royal Flush Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 646

This could be interesting... I'll respond later... must go drink.

goomlah · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: KK

If there is one thing Most people tend to do online that is just the worst thing you could possibly do, and that's raise the minimum. Now, raising all-in seems a little hard fetched, but half your stack would seem a more appropriate raise. He's not nearly as priced in if he wants to gamble. I know this was not online but a lot of people do this in a multi-table online tourney as well. It just will not work out long run

Zuchov · Royal Flush Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 646

[Double post... damn you length limit!]

Zuchov · Royal Flush Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 646

[Triple post... damn you, length limit!]

Zuchov · Royal Flush Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 646

[Had to snip out your quote to make the length limit]

OK, well the basic reason I think it's appropriate for the min reraise here is that doing so essentially pot commits chalmer (on the flop, he has enough left to make one pot sized bet). So it's really kind of a stop and go move, but one that the other player may be able to call with the weaker type of holding we really want to be up against anyway. This is good because chalmer has a very nice spot to double up here with his KK, and therefore improve his odds early in the tournament. Given the range of hands that his opponent could have making that preflop raise (which is quite large), I think we want him to see a flop. The odds of an opponent flopping 2 pair is 2.2%, provided he has two unpaired cards, the odds of hitting that ace (assuming they're all live) is 18%, and the odds of flopping a set is also 12%, if he indeed does have a pair. What's much more likely to happen is that his opponent will hit a flop that either doesn't help him (allowing chalmer to pick up a valuable ~850 chips), or looks good, but is actually inferior to chalmer's KK, allowing him to double up as a favorite.

I also honestly think that any hand that is somewhat dangerous to chalmer (such as a strong A or a strong pair) will call the all in anyway, given that this is a $25 buy in tourney. A hand that wouldn't call the all (like a high suited connector, or strong paint) is one we want to see the flop, given the low odds it has of flopping something better than KK. What we're more likely to see here is a case where the guy is playing that suited connector, flops a draw (or top pair) and is therefore capable of calling an all in, giving chalmer a ~70% chance of a double up.

My preference in this spot is to make the play that helps us double up the most often, becoming an early chip leader and giving all the benefits of that situation, rather than waiting until we've invested more time into the tourney and face a tough spot where we bust out of the money anyway. In an MTT, I'd rather place last than bust on the bubble - money or go home, and figure out which one it's gonna be early on. Therefore, any moves you can make early to increase your chip stack are good moves, in my mind, because they either let you play from a bigger stack, or leave before wasting much more time for a finish out of the money anyway.

My 2c.

CoolFin69 · Flush Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 126

CoolFin69 · Flush Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 126

"At the early levels of a no-limit tournament, I perfer playing extremely tight. I don't try to force the action. I just win what the cards allow me to win as safely as possible.
...
My main thought at these early levels is on the value of the chips, since their value now is much higher than it will be later on. If you advance far enough, the antes and blinds will exceed all the chips you have in front of you early in the tournament. Play the early levels, especially the first two levels, carefully and try to avoid the all-in, coin-flip hands."

Now some people might say he is advocating what you guys are talking about and not what I said... but I don't think so.

You said Chalmer is basically pot committed with 700 of his 2500 in the pot with JUST Kings... is he going to call an ace flop? ...is he going to call 3 to the flush on board? Maybe not... but he certainly is calling or moving all-in against 2 to flush on board which is what happened here...

But does he make the same move against 9-T-x? Maybe the guy made a semi-bluff with 9Ts preflop and then had an automatic call to see the flop. Now he hits top 2 pair and figures his hand is good because the re-raiser having 99 or TT is highly unlikely and he doesn't expect that move either with xx (the baby set)... So he figures he's only called now by a dog who has an overpair or 4 to a straight... if there could be 4 to a flush he might not move in since all newbies love the 4 to flush CALL and not just the BET/RAISE... So he moves in expecting to have the best of it and knowing Chalmer would be drawing if he calls... in which case it'd be KK versus 9s & 10s going to the turn.... I know which I'd prefer to have in that situation.

So, okay, it wasn't a 9-T-x flop, it was an 8 high flop... but small suited connectors that just hit 2 pair are VERY likely as well as 4 to flush and straight draws... while lots of newbies seem to fall in love with the Ace Baby, does he really want to call all-in with bottom or middle pair with no redraws except to his ace for 2 pair?? I doubt it. MAYBE he'd call with A8, but not if he is any good. If he is a decent player, he'd have to EXPECT that you made a VALUE raise with a painted pair and would only call with 2 pair or better (including set, made str8/flush or 4 to the flush)... I'm not sure 4 to the straight is worth the call, but would've been worth a bet or reraise certainly.

My point might not be totally obvious in what I'm saying....
basically it is this:
The New School way of thinking is test the tourney early and often to try to jump out to a lead and then play your game with less concern of going broke. Fine.
The New School way of thinking is to make "value" bets & raises that get a smaller increase of money in the pot preflop in the hopes of giving odds to call both pre and post flop with weaker hands. Okay... there is reasoning for when to make such a move and when not to IMO, but generally I don't like it... The thing is, though, if you REGULARLY make moves like this you're basically no longer allowed to **** when you get outdrawn. Your whole strategy relies on giving your opponent odds with 2 cards to come. You pretty much blackmail him into a preflop call in the hopes you'll get called again on the flop. When the turn or the river sends you packing (as it should do 1 out of 4 times if you are 75% on the flop) please cry on someone else's shoulder.

Thank you. Very Happy

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