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The_OG_Rocco
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 742
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: The issue is primarly a tax issue not morality... |
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| Crimson Aces wrote: |
First of all let me come out of the closet here and say that I’m a proud conservative, registered republican and avid poker player both online and live whenever I get a chance. Like most of you I’m very disappointed in this legislation and think that it’s a huge mistake for republicans to make a move like this.
Regardless of how stupid this is politically, and despite what some of those posting on this thread may think, this legislation is not being pursued on moral grounds…its purely financial. Unlike other forms of online gambling, poker has become a massive multi-billion dollar industry which the government can’t effectively tax. In general Republicans have been the party that stands for less government, lower taxes and more freedom, but it would seem that lately many of my party have lost their way and need to be replaced….but if you think this group is bad, you have no idea how bad it will be in just about every area of your lives if the Democrats ever come back into power.
The point I’m trying to get to is this, ultimately this country needs to go to a “Fair Tax” or consumption tax and do away with all income tax. This will change the way congress deals with issues like these because they won’t see untaxed income as a drain on the government, instead money won by the superior US poker players from overseas poker players  will be spent here and with the taxes captured at the retail level. Of course this will also bring manufacturing, investment income and incredible economic growth to the country for other reasons but if you want to do something politically (Left or Right) start looking for candidates that will support a Fair Tax and getting rid of the IRS.
Just a thought… |
I wholeheartedly agree with you. The fact remains that if the Government cannot get a cut from it, they will outlaw it. Look at the history of Las Vegas, Booze/Prohibition, Lotterys, etc.... And you will see that they are'nt fooling anyone. Once they figure out a way to tax it, they'll legalize it again. |
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Paprika
Full House
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| How do you feel about taxing revenues from online gambling winnings? Is this what this is ultimately about? They can't get their hands on internet-based taxes(yet) |
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Crimson Aces
High Card
Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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 That’s my point about trying to eliminate all income tax and replace it with what is being called a "Fair Tax". You won't need to tax poker winnings. This type of system will raise taxes when you purchase something not when you make money.
When people make money they spend it and when they spend it would be taxed. No loop holes or complications. Currently the government takes about 25-50% of everyone’s income which means we can't spend it in the marketplace (Government wastes it or sends it overseas), therefore fewer jobs are created to make the things people want to buy, which in turn means lower tax revenue to the government. That’s why whenever the government lowers taxes, tax revenue goes up and when taxes are raised, tax revenue and the economy goes down. Our economy is booming today because Bush lowered taxes to fend off the recession created when Clinton raised taxes...imagine if there was no income tax at all...
It simplifies the tax system and captures taxes from sources not currently being taxed like online poker, or illegal aliens or the black market for that matter. (Not trying to compare these issues other than to say that the government currently does not receive tax revenue from these sources but they would under a Fair Tax system.)
I'm sorry for the long diatribe but while it’s not a short term solution, it is something that we can change through the ballet box and in the end restructure the government’s desire and ability to enact laws like this ban on online poker.
To answer your question...I think we are better off keeping the government out of the internet taxing business as much as possible weather its eBay or poker profits.
If you’re interested there is already a bill in congress, we just need to elect people who will support it. http://www.fairtax.org/ |
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mcpix
High Card
Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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We all know what political party did this to us, and to the football fans,across AMERICA, in mid season. Vote accordingly.
Pix |
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drowsy
Royal Flush
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 990
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Crimson Aces wrote: |
| The point I’m trying to get to is this, ultimately this country needs to go to a “Fair Tax” or consumption tax and do away with all income tax. |
I went out to the website you mentioned and read up a bit on the Fair Tax. They also call it a consumption tax, or what I believe other countries call a Value Added Tax (VAT).
I have a few problems with it.
One is the likelihood of ever getting agreement on replacing all federal taxes with just this one. Too many public policies are implemented by manipulating the current tax code. Want to encourage something? Lower the tax consequences. Discourage it? Raise its taxes. In may ways this is a reason for supporting your fair tax - but it makes it less likely to happen.
Another is that as long as an income tax is authorized by the Constitution it is always a threat to come back. We could easily end up with the worst of both worlds, a VAT tax and then later an income tax as well, just like many countries around the world currently have. Not a good thing for proponents of limited government.
Another is that millions of people currently pay no income tax, or at the end of the year they receive a refund of what they did pay. Your consumption tax would substantially raise their taxes. Your 'fair' tax would have these non-income tax paying people now paying more as they spend their limited resources on buying food and shelter for their family. I suppose in some ways this could be considered more fair. You could look at it as if these non-income tax paying people are free loaders (lousy poor people!  ), and this tax would now require them to contribute to the expenses of running their country.
Over all, I suppose you could say this new tax is 'Fair', but I think I'll pass.
[edit: Fixed the quote] |
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ajnate
Pair
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: consumption tax |
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Furthermore... if you really want to put an end to consumer spending in this country and drive industry to its collective knees, go ahead and try this consumption tax. This would cause a death spiral.
I too am a conservative (though not a Repuplican), and I too would be in favor of a massive overhaul of our tax system. But, this is not the way to do it. You don't do things to discourage consumer spending. It totally spits in the face of everything that Capitalism stands for. Sales taxes should be DECREASED, not increased. |
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htrain3434
Flush
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I know, the nineties were real tough when Clinton was in office. Did you ever see the democrats trying to ban what we do in our home? If republicans had it there way, they would ban everything. I am tired of the ultra conservative people that were behind this bill. Between the Foley scandal and banning online gambling the republicans are going to be hurting come November. |
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htrain3434
Flush
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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The republicans make me LMAO.
U.S. Representative Spencer Bachus (R, AL) said, "Addicted to gambling, just like addicted to drugs. So there is a correlation between drug dealers and gambling sites." |
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drowsy
Royal Flush
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 990
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| htrain3434 wrote: |
| Did you ever see the democrats trying to ban what we do in our home? |
Actually, yes I have.
The first thing to pop into mind is smoking. Even if you smoke in your home they say it negatively affects people outside your home. Therefore, we should ban it. Its for your own good you know and for the safety of the community.
Just saying.
The Democrats are also big on banning other things as well. We have to - its for the children.  |
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ajnate
Pair
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Did you ever see the democrats trying to ban what we do in our home? |
htrain: I hope you're kidding. Let's try a few out for size:
They attempt to ban the owning of hand guns (though they'll never win).
They impose their own views on morality at virtually every turn. They've made it excessively expensive to smoke, drink, or drive a car. They impose ridiculous taxes on tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline. The EPA goes so far as to require some **** reformulated gasoline in many regions of the country that costs more and deteriorates your car's engine. And it does virtually nothing to improve the air quality, yet they continue. They have virtually made it impossible to smoke anywhere EXCEPT your home. And they forced the states to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 or lose any federal hi-way funds.
These are just a few. The difference between Republicans and Democrats in removing civil liberties is simply how subtle they are in their methods. Republicans just come out and do it. Democrats do it thru incrementalism. They tax the hell out of you until it becomes excessively expensive to do it. If that doesn't work, they ban the fringes and work inwards. UNLESS of course, they see the golden goose of taxation is reaping benefits -- then they'll forget about their morality views and just continue taxing.
In the end, they're all the same (Dems and Reps, that is). On an optimistic day, I'll say they think they know what's best for us, and they have the power to force us to do what they want. On a cynical day, I'll say they are freaking corrupt bastages that do nothing that doesn't line their pockets and those of their cronies.
They're virtually all hacks. And it takes about twenty minutes in office to just succomb to the system. |
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smokindog
Royal Flush
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 637
Location: IL, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Ain't it grand???
The Rebublicans want to make sure we don't do anything they feel is immoral. The Democrats don't want us to do anything they think will hurt ourselves or others.
I smoke, I drink, I play poker, I don't wear my seatbelt (or helmet when on the bike), heck, I even have sex out of wedlock from time to time. Wonder if I could get a job as the poster child for either party????  |
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htrain3434
Flush
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ajnate"]
| Quote: |
| Did you ever see the democrats trying to ban what we do in our home? |
htrain: I hope you're kidding. Let's try a few out for size:
They attempt to ban the owning of hand guns (though they'll never win).
They impose their own views on morality at virtually every turn. They've made it excessively expensive to smoke, drink, or drive a car. They impose ridiculous taxes on tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline. The EPA goes so far as to require some **** reformulated gasoline in many regions of the country that costs more and deteriorates your car's engine. And it does virtually nothing to improve the air quality, yet they continue. They have virtually made it impossible to smoke anywhere EXCEPT your home. And they forced the states to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 or lose any federal hi-way funds.
These are just a few. The difference between Republicans and Democrats in removing civil liberties is simply how subtle they are in their methods. Republicans just come out and do it. Democrats do it thru incrementalism. They tax the hell out of you until it becomes excessively expensive to do it. If that doesn't work, they ban the fringes and work inwards. UNLESS of course, they see the golden goose of taxation is reaping benefits -- then they'll forget about their morality views and just continue taxing.
In the end, they're all the same (Dems and Reps, that is). On an optimistic day, I'll say they think they know what's best for us, and they have the power to force us to do what they want. On a cynical day, I'll say they are freaking corrupt bastages that do nothing that doesn't line their pockets and those of their cronies.
They're virtually all hacks. And it takes about twenty minutes in office to just succomb to the system.[/quote
First, the dems don't want to ban guns. They just want to make sure people with criminal backgrounds don't own a hundred guns and go on school shooting sprees. They impose ridiculous taxes on gas? I paid a little over a buck a gallon during the Clinton years. We were paying three bucks a gallon two months ago. I paid less in taxes on my home in the nineties than I do now, so I am not sure where you are getting your info. Oh, and we could play online poker in the nineties as well. |
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TABLEGOD
Three of a Kind
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| I used to go to church and went to a catholic school growing up but if bush and the churches hate poker then I hate church , so I think we should ban all churches after all isnt that why all these countries are fighting??, do any countries go to war over poker??, just a simple question, but I guess If we lose poker we still get to watch Bushes Cnn episodes of Death and Destruction abroad, I love those, also im a big fan of to catch a predator, thats some fine programming also, much more wholesome than evil internet poker. Bring back Bill CLinton make love not war, and dont be hatin on internet poker. |
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TABLEGOD
Three of a Kind
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| as far as gun control it sucks but Id rather lose 400 bucks online to phil ivey than have Dick Cheney shoot me in the face, seriously whats more harmful ???? |
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The_OG_Rocco
Royal Flush
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 742
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| ajnate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Did you ever see the democrats trying to ban what we do in our home? |
htrain: I hope you're kidding. Let's try a few out for size:
They attempt to ban the owning of hand guns (though they'll never win).
They impose their own views on morality at virtually every turn. They've made it excessively expensive to smoke, drink, or drive a car. They impose ridiculous taxes on tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline. The EPA goes so far as to require some **** reformulated gasoline in many regions of the country that costs more and deteriorates your car's engine. And it does virtually nothing to improve the air quality, yet they continue. They have virtually made it impossible to smoke anywhere EXCEPT your home. And they forced the states to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 or lose any federal hi-way funds.
These are just a few. The difference between Republicans and Democrats in removing civil liberties is simply how subtle they are in their methods. Republicans just come out and do it. Democrats do it thru incrementalism. They tax the hell out of you until it becomes excessively expensive to do it. If that doesn't work, they ban the fringes and work inwards. UNLESS of course, they see the golden goose of taxation is reaping benefits -- then they'll forget about their morality views and just continue taxing.
In the end, they're all the same (Dems and Reps, that is). On an optimistic day, I'll say they think they know what's best for us, and they have the power to force us to do what they want. On a cynical day, I'll say they are freaking corrupt bastages that do nothing that doesn't line their pockets and those of their cronies.
They're virtually all hacks. And it takes about twenty minutes in office to just succomb to the system. |
Bravo!! You are right on the money!! And anyone who disagrees with you and me is basically a disillusioned bastage. In My Opinion. |
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