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clussman · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: Starting hands?

I've been becoming more interested in 7 Card Stud lately. I haven't read any books on the subject and I have no idea when I'll actually have the time to change that. So I'm looking for some advice on good starting hands. I've been looking for three to a straight, three to a flush, or a pair to start and playing from there. But I'm running into big problems on 4th street.

If my straight or flush doesn't improve on 4th, I've been folding, which seems like it might be a bad idea because they only improve a small percentage of the time. Should I be playing to 5th to give my hand a chance?

When I play pairs I seem to flop a 2nd pair on 4th and inordinate amount of the time. With a max of only four outs to improve my hand, this is always the kiss of death. I lose more money with two pair than anything else. Should I stop betting these hands out? I'm not maxing the bets, but I usually lead with my two pair.

DJ Ninjah · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:

I think for the draws, you're ok with folding on 4th street. Can't remember where I read it but it basically said when drawing, 4th street really makes or breaks the hand. If you don't fold on fourth you'll be pretty much committed to the river since after that you'll have the pot odds to hit almost anything.

As for the two pair, I dunno, I'm not a stud buff myself. However, I think I would try playing it for one bet a round, unless you have a good read that you are beat. Example: I'd bet if your opponent was check/calling, and call if my opponent was betting, but I probably wouldn't raise without queens or better.

byamamoto1 · Bay Area Bidness Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 2189

middle card two pairs are horrendous, simply because you're very vulnerable to higher two pairs or better. these hands will lose lots of money for you, especially in the low limit games where people will chase and stay in on a pair of J's only to hit a second pair on the river. in regards to 4th, you should really be making your decision to play on 3rd. only play live draws and live cards. if you've got a JT9 and two queens and an 8 are dead, you should fold. if you've got a pair of split 8's and a guy with a face card K raises, you should fold here. its all about playing good in 3.

you can play wired pairs up until 5th but release them when the bet gets big. the implied odds are huge when you do hit a set. try to define your hand early and figure out where everyone is at. count cards and suits that come out to make sure that you are drawing live. 3 big cards to start like KQT are overrated. even though in hold'em hands like this look pretty, but in stud, its not that great of a hand. however overcards in stud are huge and can potentially help your hand greatly. if you know the guy has a pair of K and you've got a flush draw with an A, you have that many more ways you can pick up this pot.

playing stud takes a lot more discipline. you have to know when to fold cards and even fold good ones when you know you are drawing slim. its about making that extra bet and saving that extra bet.

Strasse · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject:

As far as folding draws that don't improve on 4th, it depends. If nobody completed on 3rd, and you got in for cheap, you should probably fold on 4th, since the pot isnt that big. If someone completed and you called, but everyone else folded, you should probably fold on 4th. There isn't enough money to make your calls +EV, especially since he will probably continue betting the rest of the way. If, however, someone completes on 4th, and more than just you call, you can probably call on 4th to try and hit your draw on 5th, as long as you don't think there will be a raise behind you. If, for example, an Ace completes, and you call with KQ7 of spades, and an aggressive player behind you calls with a Q of clubs, then he hits a K of clubs on 4th, you miss, and the original completor bets, you might consider folding, since, if you call, the aggressive player might raise to sandwich your money since he probably improved his hand with a nice draw. He could have 4 flushed, or 4 straighted, or perhaps even 4 straighted with a 3 flush. If you feel you might get sandwiched, folding is not a bad option.

As far as starting hands, 3 straight are not that spectacular, unless they are high. Hands like JT9 or QJT, since they can also give you high pairs. Also, if you play something like 345, and make your straight, it may not be good if others are playing higher straights. Only play low straights for a bring in, and in late position relative to the person bringing in(this way it is less likely someone will complete behind you and make you pay even more to see 4th). Also, when playing them, be cautious if other's boards start to look threatening. As far as high 3 straights, they are usually worth seeing a card or two, perhaps even completing with if most other door cards look pretty low. Same thing goes with 3 flushes, although be aware of what your door card is. If I have (AK)3 of clubs, I will play that much different than (A3)K of clubs. I will usually play the 3 door card much softer, while sometimes with the K or A door card, I will complete in order to represent something. This way, I might get others to fold even if I don't improve on my flush draw.

As far as playing pairs, I don't usually play low split pairs unless I have a high kicker. This way, my two pair will likely be good. Example, (3K)3 is playable because if someone is betting at me with queens, and I hit my king, I wont have to worry that they will hit a higher two pair like I would if I started with (36)3. The criteria I use is that I will only play a split pair lower than a person who is showing strength's door card if my kicker is higher than their door card. As far as buried pairs go, they are usually always playable, since your pay off odds are very good if you hit trips. However, if you feel that you are beat, and you haven't improved by 5th, I will usually fold since the bets have doubled. However, if you pick up something like a 3 flush and a 3 straight to go along with your pair, it is sometimes worth seeing 6th street since you could pick up something very nice. This usually depends on the size of the pot by that time.

Anyways, stud is very much a mechanical sort of game. Once you get the hang of it, you can sort of just play without really thinking that much, since odds dictate so much of what you do. Mixing up your play isn't really that important either, since most of the players 3/6 or even 5/10 and below don't really consider what you have. However, there are a few good players, so it is advisable to pick these people out, and maybe give them a different look every now and then, since they will notice what you are doing. Hope I helped.

clussman · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject:

Everybody has helped. I was playing my pairs pretty much the same whether they were split or buried and, although I didn't include it in my original post, I lost to higher two pairs several times too because I was playing with middle pairs. In hindsight that was so obviously dumb.

And I was playing lower straights but I was wary of low flushes when my opponent looked to have a flush draw. Dunno why I wasn't being equally wary about my pairs and straights -- I should know better.

I tend to learn intuitively. First go round with cash I was really just getting a feel for the game. For some bizarre reason I thought I would play well and profit at the same time... Again, I should know better. Wink

Thanks and keep the advice coming.

smokindog · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

I'm gonna tag onto this thread since the title says "starting hands"...

I have never played stud, but am interested in learning it.

Is there some general advise on choosing starting hands as far as when to bring in, when to complete, etc.. Starting at square 1 here. I really have no clue.

strasse, you mention it being very mechanical...odds... I don't have a clue about odds in stud. Do you have any advise or easy to understand resources you could point me to?

Strasse · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject:

If you have Super System, Chip Reese's section is fantastic. Also, when I was first learning, someone pointed me to an online article, I'll see if I can't find that for you, as its very helpful to beginninging players.

smokindog · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject:

Thanks Strasse, I appreciate it.

I may have to pick up Super System if I'm gonna venture outside NLHE.

Strasse · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject:

Here's a site I just found by searching yahoo. It looks like a pretty good site, as it has strategy for both ring games and tournaments, and also has a page on odds. However, I haven't had a chance to read the information(I'll get around to that later tonight when I have some free time) so I don't know if what they give is sound advice, but I would venture to guess it is probably pretty good. I'll let you know what I think of it after I read it though. Also, still searching for that other site. Anyways, here's the one I found:

http://www.studstrategy.com/index.htm

Strasse · Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

Ok, I found the article, but the website has since been taken down, so its not there anymore. Anyways, I'll get back to you later tonight about that other site.

smokindog · Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:24 am Post subject:

Thanks a bunch, Strasse! I'll have a read through tomorrow.

Strasse · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject:

I was reading that site, and one thing stuck out at me like a sore thumb. A horrible piece of advice, really. The example is when you have (Ac8c)Ah10c8s4c and your opponent is showing 4d6d8d9d, that you should check fold to them. This is absolutely horrible advice. You have to believe that if you hit your club flush, it is higher than your opponents. You also know that either ace or the 1 remaining 8 is a definate out. The site even mentions that you are 26% to catch your card, but that you should still fold. I can't believe that they don't know anything about pot odds to make this a profitable call. Also, in a later example, you have (Q9)Q494, while another opponent is showing 7K2K and another is showing 595J w/ 3 diamonds. They talk about folding here(which I can see based on the size of the pot) because to improve your hand, you need a Q 9 or 4, making six outs. However, since a 9 is out, your nines are dead, meaning you have 4 outs. What are they thinking? Just because 1 nine is dead, doesn't mean they both are. I really don't see how they come to that conclusion.

byamamoto1 · Bay Area Bidness Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 2189

i'm with you there strasse. just reading your post, you're pretty much stuck in there to the end on that first hand. also the size of the pot also determines whether or not you should play the hand out till the end. right there you're probably drawing to a higher flush than your opponent. it also doesn't take into account (just from reading your post) dead card and other things that would factor into your decision. that is horrible advice to fold there.

smokindog · Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the additional analysis. I have read through about half of what they have there, and it's giving me a better idea / feel for how to size up the situation. Once I finish, I'll probably just have to play a bit and come back to it to really understand things...then move on to more in-depth articles / books.

clussman · Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject:

Strasse, they did that throughout: counting numbers dead if one was out and counting flushes dead if more than two of the suit were out (although that was on 3rd street and is probably good advice). I don't have enough experience with the game to determine if the advice was good or bad so I appreciate your analysis. The first hand you mention I found particularly interesting. You hear how important it is to save a bet in draw games so I assume that's why they called for the fold but my brain, trained in Hold'Em and versed in pot odds, had a hard time swallowing the advice, especially if there were bets on 5th street.

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