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murmanator · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: check-raise taboo?

OK, first post to the forum.... Im playing at a Limit HE table last night when I flop a monster hand (dont even remember what it was), so I proceed to pull off a few check-raises that worked great. After the hand one of the players who had cold called me all the way down started getting on my case about using the C/R. I ask why, she says something about it being a move that is not allowed. I ask where, she comes back with something about 'private games'. I point out that they can have whatever 'house rules' they want but check-raise is a perfectly legal move in any casino, card room , or online. We proceed to have a discussion on the matter and, it would seem that her main point is that if you dont bet you cant raise. To me this is utterly preposterous.

Am I missing something here? Has anyone ever heard of this (C/R not allowed)? The really funny part of this was that, by telling me all this, she was basically giving me information about her game that I was able to use against her.

OpDS311 · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject:

In some places, the check/raise is frowned upon, but it is perfectly legal.

Welcome to the forum! Stick around, we have interesting discussions daily about poker that can help your game(not saying you need help, just speaking in generality), and fun non-poker discussions.

sloshedzeus · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject:

About 20 years ago when I played stud at the Fremont, the check/raise was not allowed. I have not heard of anyplace having a rule like that since.

gogzy · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject:

id be in hell if i couldnt check raise

that move has made me so much chips

Gypsydc · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject:

It's completely allowed but here's the deal. Usually in limit...you can just go ahead and bet anyway, no need to get fancy. You'll get callers...usually. I find this live and online.

murmanator · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

Gypsy, yeah I know, sometimes I like to try a different play just to see what happens. Most times I would just have bet out.

Thanks for the welcome, OpDS! I have been reading some threads here and really enjoy the discussions, I will be participating more for sure.

THanks for the other replies, all.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject:

The others have already covered your OP well. Here is a nice article from Mike Caro to which I specifically like how he points out that check-raises against fish that are just having fun and more than willing to give a strong player their money only injects the idea that strategy is involved in the game. You might consider not doing it so that you don't alert opponents that they should be thinking and serious as opposed to having fun and losing.

http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/2005_12_100.asp

He does go on to say check-raise is a powerful tool if used correctly but in your case it would probably have been better to bet through the way you described the situation. I also like how he says inject strategy in the game only if it will be invisible in a game such as yours.

BOYNAMEDSUE · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject:

You need to be able to check/raise, especially in limit poker. You need those free cards.

murmanator · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:46 am Post subject:

Thanks for posting the article, DM. Interesting indeed and something I had not really considered. I suppose that I was lucky that in the game I was describing, I did not scare off the other player... in fact I think they went on tilt and started to call me down with weaker holdings. But I certainly take the point and will add it to my game, thanks again.

griffinlord · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

A lot of home games prohibit the C/R and players from those games have been given the mistaken notion that a C/R is rude and boorish. You'll periodically run into these folks at the micros.

I haven't read the Caro article yet, but I expect I'll agree with him.

griffinlord · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject:

lesdoodis · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject:

I don't play a whole lot of LHE, but when I do I never really saw the C/R to be very useful. Chances are they will call anyways and if they raise you again it will probably be capped anyways. I usually bet out since alot of people chase or call down with less than premium holdings. To each his own, but I think it is ridiculous that C/R is banned anywhere. I have a few different home games I go to and I have never heard of it being illegal or frowned upon.

bigwheell · Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:22 am Post subject:

There are times and places for the Check Raise. Most of the time, especially online, I will wait for the turn to show my strength in the hand.

Otherwise I will check raise on the flop if I expect action from a late position player who raised with limpers in the pot already. The initial raiser will more often than not lead out with a continuation bet. If it looks to me like he may have missed the flop, I will check the flop with the expectation of raising when the action gets back to me. I will make it two bets to the rest of the field. I will then lead on the turn betting and the late position raiser will give up with his AK or AQ...

Kind of an Isolation type play, and I feel that it works enough to come out ahead at the limits where I play.

At a Casino, it depends on what stakes I am playing at. If I am playing at the spread limit games, I will not hesitate to check raise...better players at these tables and I need to mix my game up a bit.

If I am at the 3-6 table, I generally will not check raise...The table is usually full of old guys, just having fun. I will see them take out hundred after hundred and keep buying chips. I do not want to piss these guys off by checkraising them and make them play better poker against me. I will laugh at their jokes, listen to their stories, and listen to them while they complain they get outkicked again with their KJoffsuit...This group of guys are the regular Friday night group that plays every weekend at the 3-6 table.

That is the only reason I will not check raise at the 3-6 level...It is not a lot of money, but I can usually come out between $100-$200 ahead when I make the trip to the casino and play for 5 or 6 hours.

murmanator · Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject:

THanks for the comments, big. Looking back at the play I noted in the original post, I understand now that it may have been risky in terms of the Caro article, although it worked out fine in that hand and subsequent hands did not suffer (they kept calling). Definitely good knowledge to have and I will keep it in mind in future games.

Good points, all, thanks!

mzbuns · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject:

Great article, thanks Deadmoney!

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