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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7607
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: THE STUPIDEST PLAY EVER |
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Attention beginner tournament, and SNG players!
There is a play known by most tournament players called the 'check down'. When a short stack goes all-in, and 2 other players call, they check down the hand to give them a better shot of eliminating the short stack. 2 hands are better than one. You do it unless you have a hand so strong you know the short stack will be eliminated, and now you just want to get more chips out of your other opponent.
It is a common play in tournaments, especially when it's close to the money, and eliminating an opponent is more important than the chips you'll earn. And it's a great play in SNGs, where you only have to outlast 6 opponents to make the money.
What you don't want to do is, well.... Read the following HH.
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FullTiltPoker Game #208047064: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (1316210), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:32:12 ET - 2005/09/05
Seat 1: samJ (485)
Seat 3: DocHollAK (3,230)
Seat 4: Pocket Watch (2,700)
Seat 5: Sammy Soco (3,120)
Seat 7: BOYNAMEDSUE (1,205)
Seat 9: dwaldo4 (2,760)
Pocket Watch posts the small blind of 50
Sammy Soco posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BOYNAMEDSUE [As Qd]
BOYNAMEDSUE raises to 350
dwaldo4 folds
samJ raises to 485, and is all in
DocHollAK folds
Pocket Watch folds
Sammy Soco calls 385
BOYNAMEDSUE calls 135
*** FLOP *** [Th 5d 7h]
Sammy Soco checks
BOYNAMEDSUE checks
*** TURN *** [Th 5d 7h] [8d]
Sammy Soco bets 250
BOYNAMEDSUE folds
Sammy Soco shows [Jc Qh]
samJ shows [4s 4h]
Uncalled bet of 250 returned to Sammy Soco
*** RIVER *** [Th 5d 7h 8d] [Ad]
Sammy Soco shows Ace Queen high
samJ shows a pair of Fours
samJ wins the pot (1,505) with a pair of Fours
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What did Sammy Soco accomplish by doing this? Nothing!
He had no hand, didn't win any money, and samJ tripled up, when he whould have been eliminated if Sammy Soco checked it down. |
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Zuchov
Royal Flush
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, Sammy had an inside draw with two overs. I was playing in a $50 SNG last night and some guy bluffed into a dry side pot (with much worse) 3 or 4 times. The shortstack (who started his comeback with 2.5 BBs) Ended up taking third, and the moron busted on the bubble. That was sweet. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not a huge fan of the check down myself. I think that if you think you can get some money out of your other opponent, you should by all means do so. Also, the short stack is more likely to have an inferior hand, while the other player is more dangerous to you. I see nothing wrong with playing to win as many chips as you can, rather than just to knock people out. |
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UrbanMeyer1
Royal Flush
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 720
Location: Gainesville, FL (The Swamp)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, Boy, there is no rule that says he has to do this though...so there is nothing you can do about it. |
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BigBlue56
High Card
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bluffing without a made hand is asking to get beat by the all-in player. |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, but you still have a greater chance of beating one hand than two. If you dont get called, you lose nothing - except maybe your pride. |
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ray01
High Card
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| maybe raise the 250 bet to 750 to check where he is at |
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Synonym
High Card
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:50 pm Post subject: live check down |
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| This happened to me at Bellagio's $1000 buy in. Much more dramatic and although I snuck into the money, this play cost me the tournament. Big all in on my right (he had JJ). I called with QQ....fellow on my left called also. We checked a raggedy board to the end when the guy on my left went all in. I folded....he showed 32 offsuit....no pair ! JJ survives and I lose a monster pot. 23 offsuit later tells me that he just went ballistic after 10 hours of playing. These were not manics or poor players. It's just poker.[/i] |
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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7607
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Jaconda78 wrote: |
| I think that if you think you can get some money out of your other opponent, you should by all means do so. Also, the short stack is more likely to have an inferior hand, while the other player is more dangerous to you. I see nothing wrong with playing to win as many chips as you can, rather than just to knock people out. |
If Sammy Soco had taken a second to think about the hand, he probably would have come to 2 conclusions.
1. His Q-high wasn't good enough to get any more chips out of me. If I fold, he gets no more chips out of me. If I call, I have him beat, and he loses even more chip. I'm not calling with J-high or worse. After all, I was the original raiser.
2. His Q-high still has to hold up against the all-in player. Why would someone with Q-high think his or her hand is superior to a player who's all-in? What do players go all-in with? When they're as low on chips as SamJ was, any Ace, or any pair are both strong possibilities. AT, AJ, KQ, KJ, even KT, are also strong possibilities, and all beat Q-high.
A little common sense, that's all I ask. We could have taken out samJ together, but instead, he got greedy, and tripled samJ up.
It was a poor play, and you're right, there's nothing I can do, except rant about it in this forum, and maybe educate a beginning tournament player, or two. |
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CoolFin69
Flush
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: OMG |
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...yeah, so, the respect I had gained for Jaconda and UMeyer has now been lost in this single thread
lol
the CHECK DOWN is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT piece of etiquette/good play in tournament poker...
YES, obviously when I'm all-in I just hope and pray someone bluffs at it so my good hand preflop holds up after I see some board cards that scare the hell out of me.... which is EXACTLY why you SHOULDN'T do it...
if you can be given a time out (sent to penalty box, spanking, 20 mins off table -- lol) for expletives (mostly F bombs) you should also be given time outs for not checking down
LOL
I mean, doing it when you think you're ahead is at least SOMEWHAT justifiable... or if the short stack is so short stacked that he/she is irrelavant with or without quadrupling up (but in this case, it really shouldn't be a dry side pot to begin with)... but BLUFFING to a dry side pot when you KNOW someone is already all-in?? I can't believe some of you are even trying to defend this... it is CLEARLY the WORST play in ALL of poker...
the poker gods don't ask for much in return for all the riches they bestow upon you... but this is a move that wil certainly get that poker karma coming back to bite you in the ass, I've seen it time and again |
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CoolFin69
Flush
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| now, that being said, I have certainly fired at pots with someone else all-in, but this is usually as PAYBACK to someone else who refused to check it down... and almost ALWAYS I have the nuts, or sometimes just top pair, top 2, or a set if I think the idiot bettor is weak and being stupid |
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Jaconda78
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| The goal in a tourny isn't just to knock people out - it's to put yourself in a position to win. This means getting all the chips you can, any way you can. The more chips you have, the greater your chances of being called. I don't think the check down is something that should be done no matter what - you should always try to make as many chips off the hand as possible. |
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BOYNAMEDSUE
Moderator
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7607
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:06 am Post subject: |
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I think some people misread my original post, or didn't read it all (Sorry, I know my posts can be long).
My intent was not to discourage people from betting into a dry pot altogether, but to discourage people from bluffing at a dry pot.
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
You don't win any more chips, you only lose chips, and help the player who's all-in. It's a losing play.
You're playing to win, but you should gang up on short stacks when the opportunity arises. To win you must first make the money, and knocking people out helps. |
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claw1980
Pair
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:34 am Post subject: Re: |
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| Jaconda78 wrote: |
| The goal in a tourny isn't just to knock people out - it's to put yourself in a position to win. This means getting all the chips you can, any way you can. The more chips you have, the greater your chances of being called. I don't think the check down is something that should be done no matter what - you should always try to make as many chips off the hand as possible. |
the problem with your very flawed logic is that you seem to think there is a high probablity tha queen high is good in this spot. How many short stacks push with less than that? and even still, say he did with oh i dunno, 9 ten or jack ten, he still hit the flop and has the winner. What hand does QJ beat here? The bet into a dry side pot has some use, but its limited and most certainly was not worth while in this situation. |
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PlayingTheBoard
Full House
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 241
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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1. His Q-high wasn't good enough to get any more chips out of me. If I fold, he gets no more chips out of me. If I call, I have him beat, and he loses even more chip. I'm not calling with J-high or worse. After all, I was the original raiser.
2. His Q-high still has to hold up against the all-in player. Why would someone with Q-high think his or her hand is superior to a player who's all-in? What do players go all-in with? When they're as low on chips as SamJ was, any Ace, or any pair are both strong possibilities. AT, AJ, KQ, KJ, even KT, are also strong possibilities, and all beat Q-high.
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I think most of the posters are arriving at the same conclusion, just stating it differently. It sometimes makes sense to check down and try and knock out the all-in player, and the example you cite above is a perfect example of that.
However, there are other times when you have a reasonably strong, but not great, hand that you want to bet and protect, even if you're betting into a dry side pot. For instance, you might hold TT and see a flop of 663, and you don't want to be run down by someone getting free cards and beating you with AJ, or KQ, etc.
The primary focus is on gaining the most chips possible--often times that's done by checking along and seeing if your hand can win a 3-way showdown, but at other times that's best accomplished by betting to protect your hand and knocking out someone who is drawing to beat you, and get down to a heads-up (rather than 3-way) pot against the all-in player. I certainly don't like betting into a dry-side pot with something like ten-high, no-pair...but I dislike not betting with QQ on a J85 board to protect your hand just as much. |
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