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deadmoney314 · Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Adjusting to your opponents

Most poker players fall into a style after a while and get rooted deeply in it. A broad spectrum of styles emerges ranging from tight to loose, passive to agressive, tricky to straightforward. I see few players mixing up their game to get their opponents off guard and not many that will adjust to the mixture of styles at the table.
For instance, lets say you are sitting down at 2/4 6max and the table is player uber tight/passive. Lets also assume your style is tight/aggressive. In this situation it can be more profitable to begin opening up your starting requirements because your opponents will be laying down hands that they should contest with but are instead waiting for the big hands that are too far in between. Also, this is additionally profitable if most of your opponents will not continue to further streets if they miss unless they have a big pair. Being able to read situations is profitable and acting on it is crucial to success.
On the other hand, if you are normally loose/aggressive and the table is playing loose/aggressive and even tricky--its time to start throwing away the marginal holdings preflop. This is the typical situation you will sit down to at small stakes limits. You will simply be charged the maximum for mediocre draws draining your profits when you do hit because of the cost of chasing. Often you will be reraised or called if you try to raise A4o from the cutoff for a steal, not that you should forego every steal attempt, you should just lower the number of attempts.
The hardest part is adjusting to the table on the fly. There is hardly any rhyme or reason to this, maybe the biggest action donkey of the bunch sits out for whatever reason and the chips stop flying. Other times, players get burned enough or a player sits down that changes the dynamic of the game. Sudden changes like this happen often if the play is generally loose aggressive and you need to be ready to pounce on the opportunity if you sense your opponents' tendancies leaning towards folding rather than raising or calling.
This will happen on tight tables as well vice versa. A player that is trying his/her best to play only good cards will get KK cracked 3 times and go bezerk and the resulting play can trigger another player to going on tilt and suddenly the game veers aggressive. Then its time to let go of the marginal holdings and choose your spots wisely to outplay others, especially if you are the one that layed a few of the bad beats.
You will find tables often that will simply lay down everything to you, and you will go on a stealing rampage for an hour before the game changes. If you are always playing TA then you will never attempt to get this information early on and then act on it.
In conclusion, playing ABC poker or even LAG poker is bad if its the only way you know how to play. Even though the online world offers completely new opponents a lot of the time when you sit down, being predictable is a surefire way to reduce profits or even lose your bankroll.

Please comment on how you change your game or your opinions on points I've made in this post.

mathman1115 · Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject:

Good post deadmoney, and i mostly agree with what you say.
Changing styles and adjusting to your opponents is always a good skill to have in poker. However, those that play micro limits and low limits (anything below 1/2) shouldn't read too much into this strategy. Being fancy and adjusting is usually not necessary at these limits. In the long run, ABC poker will win you the money at these levels. Players are so bad, have no clue about odds, and only think about what they have in their hand. No point in changing your style, because they won't know what your original style is anyway.
At the higher levels, which i dont' play, i think it is very important to adjust and mix up your play. You can be tricky here, because trickiness will work against better players. I am not saying that everyone who plays micros is bad and everyone that plays high levels are good, but in general, the higher the limit, the higher the skill level.

I know at the micros that developing an image is almost useless (remember, we are talking about limit). I've had sessions where i would fold 20 hands in a row, then pick up AA, cap it preflop, play it strong all the way, and get called down by A3 that paired a 3 on the board. They simply do not pay attention, or do not care about losing.

Riddim · Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject:

Even if our opponents don't pay attention to us, it's essential to alter our play in order to exploit their weaknesses(sp?) to the max. I haven't played above $.50/$1 yet, and I don't even play that much limit, but this is something that still feels pretty obvious. Sure, we can all be winning players at the lower limits by just playing ABC poker, but if we want to play good poker we have to adapt to our opponents. Nice post btw Deadmoney.

bigwheell · Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject:

Sorry this got to be so long, but I hope this post has a little bit of worthwhile information in it...I enjoy seeing these posts Deadmoney, so please keep them coming every week or two...

I will quite often 4 table at Party...In order for this to be successful, I have to be able to change my style of play on a very regular basis, if not several times per revolution. I am at work right now, so I cannot give you specifics, but the last time I four tabled at PP, it was at .50/1.00 limit and my VP$IP ranged from around 16% at one table all the way to 39% at another table. I cashed out about 45 bucks ahead in roughly 1000 hands. I was up on 3 tables and down at 1 table.

On the 16% table, I played super tight, based on the fact that I was dealt K3, Q2, 74, and A7 about 80% of the hands...When I would catch AK, the flop would be 678...I stayed even on that table by playing the top tier hands, AA-AJ, KK, QQ, JJ and playing fit or fold poker and betting my good hands and folding when I missed the flop. Raises on that table got no respect, and I just didn't continuation bet or bluff, it just didn't pay when no one would fold to a single bet after the flop.

I cashed out about $25 ahead at the VP$IP 39% table. I could not lose at this table and I would basically run to the river with any hand I came in with and caught a piece of the flop. When I wasn't forcing everyone to fold by betting, I was catching two pair or a set on the river to take the pot down. This superagressive post flop play forced players off their game and they started chasing and going to the river with second or third pair because 5 hands previous, I had caught my second pair on the river and won with my 10-7 off suit. Players would remember this and I would get paid off big on my good hands as well. Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that I am invincible or anything when I play this way...I would lose hands as well. People would end up chasing to the river to beat me, I would get out drawn, or I would go to the river with a worse hand. Over the couse of the session I think I made out better than the chasers did.

Several times I had seen this happen at the 2-4 tables when I was playing up at that level. At that time, I thought what idiots these guys were for seeing 30%-40% of flops, but I think there is a method to their madness and it worked out quite well for some of them, as it has worked out quite well for me several times as well.

I get lots of "Fukin Donk" and "Fish" comments when I play like that, but I can take the comments in stride as the pots are slid my way. If someone would get a little overzealous in their comments to me, I would tell them "Don' be so hard on yourself" after they typed something into the chat box about my play. Doing that would really set them off...Kinda funny at times...

Back to the post, what this shows is that you cannot play one specific style all of the time. If I had played LAG at all 4 tables, I would have had my ass handed to me, just the same as if I had played TAG at all 4 tables. You have to play your hands based on the play of others at the table, just as much as you have to play your cards.

Single tabling, this principle applies as well. The cards come as they come, and the players play as they play....It is the job of a good poker player to adjust his or her game to make the most money out of the situations that arise on the tables. You may need to adjust your playing style several times per revolution to extract maximum value from your opponents.

One other thing to think about is that at the lower limits, player turnover is fairly common. I bet that I see 2-3 new players every 20-30 hands. This can change the game play significantly at times and can turn a tight table into a loose or vice versa in a relatively short period of time. Players have to be able to adjust to that, or they will continue being a break even or losing player(IMHO).

Comments or questions are always appreciated...

griffinlord · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 am Post subject:

I love this topic since one of my biggest leaks right now is that I seem to be unable to adjust to the play on one particular site. I'm generally able to ramp aggression and tight/loose up and down, at least a bit, but there are some other things that I'm just not getting. And since I'm not getting it, I can't adjust to it.

Keep 'em coming

bigwheell · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject:

If you do not want to reveal too much, I can understand...otherwise post a few specifics about what you are having trouble with and maybe we can help you out...

deadmoney314 · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the comments and great follow up discussion. I agree from what I remember of micro, you can play auto-pilot and expect to have a nice linear rise in bankroll. I have some pretty funny drunk sessions logged in PT at .25/.50 (I don't like to play serious when I'm off my rocker).
Getting to small stakes I don't see much difference between 2/4 thru 5/10 (although there is a distinction). Bigwheel, I know what you mean about the 30+ vpip players, they seem to pop up everywhere and those are your ATMs. They do present you with 3bet bluffs on the turn which produce some fantastically difficult decisions to make (especially with a lot of multiway pots). In the end, if you are finding yourself making great turn decisions in those games your BB/100 ramps up considerably. High variance is nicely offset with 4 table though and sounds like you are doing well.
Lastly, I'd just like to thank you guys again for discussion like this. This is why I like to come to this forum because people are willing to discuss concepts in addition to HH analysis. When people start talking about ideas, I'm all in.

griffinlord · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject:

bigwheell · Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject:

Deadmoney, I too enjoy the comment and dialog in the limit section of this forum...Keep up with the posts. It seems that limit players are a small community on this forum and we need to stick together to keep the posts counts up in this section.

Griffenlord, Sounds like maybe short term problems or variance. It seems like you have a handle on what is going on with your game, or at least several theories about what is causing your frustrations. Take the time to work through them, or just move your money off that 4th site...

One thing I would suggest is to track you play by time of day, or go back and check your sessions on poker tracker, and see if you are losing at the same time of the day all the time.

Please read below about a problem that I was having while playing at Party Poker...Kinda similar to yours.

I used to play in the mornings at party poker and most of the .50/1 and 1/2 limit tables are full of europeans(nothing against players from europe), 10am here is 5pm-7pm over there...and I have a heck of a time beating the game when there are more than three players from Europe in the game.

I can't put my finger on why I can't beat them, but I have a heck of a time showing a profit when at a table with them(I hope Don Svenne doesn't see this post) I have since learned to stay away from limit on PP in the mornings. I will play sit and go's, or Pot limit Omaha at PP in the mornings, but not limit holdem...I will play on Full Tilt as an option as well in the mornings.

For me, I am pretty sure they were not outplaying me, or getting extrememly lucky against me all the time (the dreaded suckouters) but I think that I made the right choice by not playing against them when I lost all the time. Maybe it is just psychological or just short term variance, but it was sure affecting my game. These thought in my head and my inability to post a winning session affected my play while at the tables and I think I did the right thing by just removing myself from a losing situation.

If you can avoid playing in an unfavorable situation that is costing you money, by all means do it...just my opinion of course.

Just another thing that you can take a look at...

Good Luck, Bigwheell

bigwheell · Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject:

I tried it again this morning and I just can't deal with the amount of bad players that play during this time. I four tabled for about 600 hands and I was down about 30 bucks. I am just not going to play limit on PP in the mornings...I can deal with 2 or 3 donks at each limit table, but I can't deal with 7 of them at the same table...I just can't overcome the bad play by my opponents to make any money...

I saw way too many weak starting hands turned over in raised pots that won them the hand...

Here are a few of the more memorable ones, off the top of my head...These were all raised pots by me and I was betting post flop as well.

AQs v. Q4o I lost to two pair on the river.

A10s v. 29o Ace high flush on turn lost to two's full of nines on river.

1010 v. 47o set of 10's on the flop lost to a gutshot straight on the river.

I do not think that I can win enough pots to make up for the beats these guys are giving me...I am just not going to play limit on PP in the mornings anymore...

griffinlord · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject:

Hey Bigwheel,

Well, I tried it again at a couple of different times and no luck.

The one thing I did notice was that I only seem to get action when I'm second best or getting beat on the river.

I've been promising to buy myself pokertracker for several months now. I think I am done on site 4 until I get PT so I can get a better look at what is going on.

bigwheell · Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject:

Poker tracker is worth the investment...Once you take the time to analyze you hands, I am sure that you will find a few places where you are spewing chips. I know that I did...

Another suggestion:

Maybe try to devalue top pair hands at site 4, try not to get to the river with just a single pair...Play connectors and Ax suited, and maybe even Kx suited occasionally. Play all of your pocket pair, and let them go if you don't hit trips when the hand is multiway...

Play your top pair hands for a raise only in late position and when there are only 1 or 2 others in the pot. I play this way at my local casino when my only choice is 3-6 limit, and it works quite well. There are at least 5 players per flop at this level and it seems like top pair does not win that often. I will limp with AK late if others are in the pot and proceed cautiously if I don't get a flush or straight draw on the flop.

Playing this way is a little predictable, but who is going to notice when you are playing with a table full of bad players...It works for me at the casino when I play 3-6...I normally play spread limit 2-10 or 3-20, but sometimes the wait list is just too deep to wait and I will sit at the 3-6 until a seat opens up at the other tables.

I think I am having similar problems dealing with my morning poker as you are having at site 4, and I am going to try playing this way at PP in the mornings and I will post my results here after a few sessions...

I know it gets expensive experimenting, but there is money to be made when you can figure out how to outplay your opponents, even the downright bad ones.

Maybe DeadMoney will have some insight into our predicament.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject:

There's a lot to digest in this thread but let me start by addressing multi-tabling first. At first all I used to do is 4-table all the time, this was over a year ago and really it was in the poker hayday where you could average 4-6 BB/100 playing TA autopilot. Sometimes you can still do this but many players have improved. Not that the players have improved to winning players, but not complete fish anymore, this just means you will still probably be better than half the table, especially at 6max, but your variance will go up because players are simply not going to pay you off with 6 high on the river these days. You will have to earn your take. Well I meant to start with multitabling but got off on a tangent.

Recently, for about the past 6 months I find myself usually 2 tabling and on occasions 1 table. I still will jump at the opportunity to fill my entire screen up, but the conditions have to be favorable for me to do so. What I start with is finding at least two tables going, multi site if need be and if the games are easy I will add more until maxed out. If tables change to the point where i'm needing more time for decisions, I will start closing tables keeping only the easiest pickings. I found for me it does no good to have 3 juicy tables and 1 difficult one where I begin to make mistakes to the point of losing profits had I just stuck with 2-3. Sometimes there are two players going insane on a table and I want the action but it will take more of my time to make accurate decisions on it, sometimes I'll decide to focus only on that table and crush it, and other times I'll close it and focus on the others. In little bits of spare time I'm always hunting for good looking tables to maximize profits. I think this is key to being a good multi-tabler although take my opinion with a grain of salt. I know plenty of friends i've met through playing online that pull much more than me in a year playing craploads of 1-2 or 2-4 tables, i've known a guy to play 11 tables from just one site at a time and he has a nicer car than me.

Anyway, on to another topic. Another key of this limit game we play is aggression. I probably sound like i'm beating a dead horse, and you've heard the aggression concept repeated endlessly in literature, forums, anything poker related. The funny thing is that not many people truly have a good grasp of aggression despite all this available knowledge. I think some facets of aggression can only be learned by experience at the table and rarely do I see pure aggression mixed with talent and excellent execution in small stakes. It does exist but its rare. The great thing about online poker is that this is easy to learn. Bump down a limit or two and have a set amount that you are willing to lose at that limit. Play some captain insano ram-and-jam poker. When I say that, I mean really spew some bets, if you think A7s is good before the flop, push it all the way to the river. Bet and raise your draws. Any pocket pair 6s and above cap preflop, cap flop and then begin decision making on the turn. Plow over check-raises trying to isolate you. Yes, you will most likely lose, but you are paying for something... your aggression education. You need to understand how opponents react to this type of outburst to have a well-rounded idea of aggression at the higher limits. Sometimes if I think a PP is good preflop, i'll go ahead and cap preflop and keep betting just to find a guys breaking point. This is not only useful information but it also gets players wary of you--others it excites and juices up the action for a while. After you do this and return to your limit you'll see many aspects of the game in a different light, I guarantee it. The next time you see captain insano plop down at your current limit, you'll know how and why the other players will react to him/her and what it might mean for your decisions. You might even win in this experiment (don't expect too) good luck you'll need it Smile

griffinlord · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:31 am Post subject:

Hey Bigwheel,

I'm playing 6-max these days, but will adapt your advice and give it a try.

Dead,

I just read an article on aggression in cardplayer last night. It was interesting to me because it went over a situation that I see quite a bit at site 4. Basicly the OOP player check/calls the flop and check/raises the turn. This can be effective against folks who are from the "bet/raise until you know you are beat" school of aggression.

I realize that I need to reread the article to internalize the message because I can't explain anymore than what I just did. But it was clearly about adjusting to a particular style of play, and adjusting to the adjustment.

Oh, wait, I think some of it is coming back to me--see if this sounds right.

You are in position and it is heads up against villian. You have a moderate hand that might be good but isn't really strong (think over-pair or top pair).

On the flop it goes check-bet-call.

On the turn (a scare card) villian checks and you ______.

Option one: Bet. This is the aggressive option and with so many people learning to maniaclly aggressive villan can use this as an opportunity to check-raise. Even if you have the best hand you have to worry that you are beat. If you are behind and don't fold it costs you 3 bets to get to showdown.

option 2: check through. This is the passive option and is frowned on by most, but, if you are way behind it costs you 1 bet to get to showdown instead of 3. If you are way ahead it may induce a bluff by villan on the river.

The auther was advocating the use of option 2 in the current poker environment. And when I think about it, I've lost a lot of pots to a player who check-raises me on the turn on site 4. One sites 1,2,and 3 I rarely run into the turn check-raise.

deadmoney314 · Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:15 am Post subject:

This sounds like a flavor of some old Caro advice that basically states, bet less into tricky players and call more often. Heads up though I'll need a lot of evidence to not bet top pair on the turn. I feel even if you are check-raised it makes for better table image if you are betting top pair on the turn so when you are betting something weaker in the future it has better success rates.

This kinda segways back into decision making which is what poker is all about at its core. In fact earlier you had mentioned when you look back at some HHs you notice you sometimes lose big pots to rediculous holdings by villains in which case you should ignore the results of the suckout and see how well your decisions were in the key pots.
If your confidence at all is sketchy on decision making, try 1 tabling for a while just to analyze the accuracy of your decisions. This is where $50 for PT will help you immensely, you will find leaks and you will find ways to plug them. You can replay hands visually and see if you were not only calling correctly for pot odds +EV etc, but whether or not you were betting and raising while you were ahead (which is usually the larger leak as most can figure out pot odds for calls).

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