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Rafe Furst · Full Tilt Pro Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 6

When it comes to tournament play, I think good players currently have a bigger edge in Razz than any other game. This has to do with the average level of play in Razz relative to the other games, so my statement is not universal, just an observation of the current state of affairs. Here's my reasoning...

In Holdem and Omaha you can never be certain when your opponents have made a mistake because their uncommon cards are all hidden. Therefore in these games, mathematical or odds calculation mistakes may go unpunished, or even rewarded if the uncertainty can cause an opponent to make a bigger mistake (like folding a winner). Contrast this with Razz where the kinds of mistakes that we see are mostly mathematical and it is often the case that when your opponent makes such a mistake you can be 100% certain that they are making it. Having this certainty, you have two huge advantages: (1) you can punish the mistakes to the maximum, and (2) you will never be mislead into making a reactive mistake because of uncertainty.

A good player also has the opportunity to take advantage of superior powers of observation, memory and math skills by noticing what cards are out. This is also true of Seven Stud, but because Stud is traditionally a very popular game, the average level of play is much higher than in Razz, and the mistakes are fewer.

Some may argue that in games like NL and Pot Limit Holdem each mistake is much costlier and therefore the better players have a bigger advantage. This may be true in ring game play, but in tournaments, once you are out, you can no longer apply your advantage. Thus, there is a premium on surviving long enough so that (cumulatively) your edge overcomes the variance in the game. Normally, if you increase variance, you don't change expectation, but tournaments are a notable exception because of the survivorship issue.

Note: I'm not an expert Razz player mysefl, so I'm not defending my play in yesterday's WSOP event or making excuses for not cashing :-) I did however see an amazing amount of bad play, and was encouraged that at least one person at my starting table had never played Razz before in his life (ring or tournament, live or online). And still he played much better than the woman to his left who loves Razz and made a special trip to the WSOP just to play in it!

--Rafe

GripHoldOn

triple h · High Card Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 20 Location: Ohio

I agree very much so with the best tournament razz players consistanty doing well. I myself have won 3 MTT's on FTP in razz and a lot the players I see in the games I recognize, because a lot are usually right there. When I won my 2nd Razz MTT in April, I checked the ftpfan.com leaderboard and saw 3rd place won a MTT before in razz and 2nd was a solid solid player in general. My 3rd razz MTT I checked again. 3rd place finished runner up in the Razz Bracelet race and 2nd actually won a bracelet race. In razz, the best players will usually make it far. Anyone in the top 100 of that leaderboard in Razz is a threat in SNG's and MTT's.
A bad razz player will never win a Razz MTT unlike holdem where luck is more of a factor.

AlexScottUK · Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject:

I agree with most of what you're saying, and I think that a lot of my edge that I have playing Razz is because most players are terrible at it. You have so much information about your opponent's hand in Razz that its easier for a good player to make the right decisions.

But to say there's more luck in No Limit Hold'em is just crazy. The hands in Razz run much closer in value (you certainly don't see many situations where one hand is greater than a 70% favourite against another, on third street anyway), and when the stakes get high in tournaments you see plenty of all-in confrontations that are essentially coinflips.

I have a reasonably good record in Razz tournaments, and when I go out it's usually because I get a good four card six or similar outdrawn in an all-in confrontation. But my point is that it's difficult to get your chips in as an overwhelming favourite. Its hard enough in Hold'em!

triple h · High Card Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 20 Location: Ohio

Depending on blind hands that's true, however certain situations are more skill based. Say you hold 4 3 A. The board has the other 3 4's and all fold and a player with a 5 door card plays with you. Even if he has a good hand underneath, he has not yet made anything, the 3 4's are not available to help the 5 hand and are not available to hurt your hand. Although this situation is rare, you get the idea of what I'm saying. The better razz players are aware that two premium hands are even money, until you take into account the door cards. The better razz players will also know better if they are behind, on a decent draw, or have their opponent crushed and bet accordingly. Even situations like (K A) 2 v. (8 7) 3. THe 8-7 is ahead preflop and depending upon cards will have a big lead if a card under 8 hits. That's all i've got.

PostModernBoy · Pair Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 34

In your poll on which WSOP tournament would be the softest, I did make the case for razz based on a large number of people playing because they saw it on TV. Apparently, I was right if some players had never played razz before.

It doesn't appear to be on the TV schedule for this year, though, so I don't think the field will be as soft next year. That is, if it isn't replaced by yet another no limit hold em event.

angelbullock · Three of a Kind Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 82

Sorry , I strongly disagree. Generally, razz is an unpopular game due to the luck factor. The luck factor in razz is smaller than most people think. If you bring in with a paint showing and call the full bet, I want to play with u at the razz table 24-7. The razz field is smaller due not being spread at the casinos and the online gaming sites. Most people who play razz at full tilt on the sng and mtt have a clue to the starting hands. Those who dont, well, they make the more knowledgeable happy. I would say the weakest field is the small no limit holdem fields and the strongest field is the 2-7 lowball draw crowd.

bronstahd · High Card Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 4

I know it's cliche, but I have to agree. Ultimately, my experience in Razz has led me to believe that most people I've played against don't have the foggiest idea how to play. Even a basic understanding of the game would place one above most players.

FlopQuads · High Card Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 2

I'm not a professional poker player or anything, but anyone who says that razz has less luck than hold em has a screw loose in my book. The survival aspects in ANY tourney are all the same, only play quality hands and alternate between trapping, value betting and bluffing to make moves. Of course razz, being a limit game, takes away a lot of betting options, also increasing the luck factor. My main point is that no one will every convince me that razz isn't more luck than not, especially online where there is no way to read a player. You just have to guess and hope you are correct. The primary time that luck is involved in razz is the 4th and 5th cards. It doesn't matter if u started with A23 if the next two cards are A2 or 33 and the other guy has a possible made low hand already, not to mention KK or some garbage like that. If you've won razz tourneys congrats, but in my book you got mostly lucky, end of story.

AlexScottUK · Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject:

Well I've won consistently in the Razz cash games ever since Full Tilt started them for real money, and I have the records to prove it. Are you seriously saying that I just got lucky?

Well, I am a lucky player I suppose. A powerful winning force surrounds me.

Sea Otter · High Card Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 18

DLS71 · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject:

I encourage anyone that wants to try on RAZZ for cash, go and watch the cash games here for awhile, and watch what people are doing, and always try to estimate who has the best hand before the cards are shown. This i think will give you a head start to a GREAT career hopefully, if thats what u want. WOW that was an incredibly long sentence. I better sit down. Oh i already am COOL. Peace

Lucky_Bub · Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:34 am Post subject:

I think the reason RAZZ is my best game is because I can truly see when my opponent is making a mistake.

And my opponent can't bust me on one lucky card. He has to battle it out with me.

A donks worst night mare is to have to battle a good player. Not just get lucky anybody can do that.

icemaker109 · High Card Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

i think that razz should be pot limit of no limit!

its not as fun when it is just limit! to easy to draw out on people

docallme · Pair Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

The good razz players can always go deep in a tourny. But when the blinds are so high, it becomes a game of luck and it doesn't matter what you start with.
Example- I got heads up in a tournament and started with A234 and my oppenent had A29 10 going all in and I end up with a K low.

So even the good players can get beat!!!

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