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Big Stan 7676
High Card
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Halifax,NS
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| fire_eyes_2k wrote: |
| compncards wrote: |
Best possible stud hi low hand
AAA or any rolled up cards
After that in my opinion 345, but many will say A23 suited. 345 has many more ways to go for a straight. A23 can only give you one way for a straight. While the A will help if you hit it, I wouldnt want to hang my life on A's for high. |
I think you're missing the point of hi/lo games. The objective is to scoop the pot, have the best possible high and low hand. Sure AAA or any set is a good start for the hi, but it's a disaster for the low as 2 of your cards are bricks. If your set is 999 or higher you can't even get a low hand.
BNS has it right, the best starting hand is an ace and 2 wheel cards all of the same suit. |
Actually you don't get it. I've seen this comment dozens of times. "The objective is to scoop the pot, have the best possible high and low hand." In Stud 8ball approximately 50% of the time there is no qualifying low hand. Thus everytime you win a high only pot you "scoop". Real stud players know this and value the high only draw more than the low for that reason. They'll always be a high hand winner. Those folks who think looking for the perfect double creates the best winning hand are mistakingly missing the point. The best double draws are great, but can have the possibility of counterfieting lows. Busted low draws on 7th street ect. A hand like AAA on the flop is an opportunity to play pure power poker. Read Super System by Doyle Brunson if you don't understand the term "power poker".
This game is all about return on investment. Playing low hand draws can give you 1/2 the pot. Playing high hand draws can give you 1/2 the pot 50% of the time and all the pot the other half. If you want to scoop and move your chip stack/bankroll forward value and play the high first. That's classic chip management for high low games. Be it Stud or Omaha. Everytime I see low draws bet on the flop I smile. And then I think don't tap the fish tank! Here fishie fishie!  |
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Buzzbball06
High Card
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Buzzbball06
High Card
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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nimbus
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm somewhat late to the conversation. I guess this post started as the best possible s/8 hand and got morphed into the best starting hand.
So I'll give my thoughts on the best starting hand.
Posters have bits and pieces correct. The best possible hand is AAA and then probably hands like 555 and then 444. These hands are key because they "block" people from making low straights, since low straights require both a 4 and a 5. Also these hands have some deception value because more often than not your opponents are putting you on some kind of low draw. So they may get stubborn and go all the way to the river with one high pair. These hands play well in all limits and numbers of opponents.
People can then argue whether they want something like A23 (all suited) or 345 (all suited). For the sake of brevity I'm gonna pass on this discussion. Maybe I'll discuss this in another post.
Instead I'd rather focus on the hands that you'll most likely get. Hands like 345 and 567 have much more value multi-way. They are easier to play and it's hard to over play them or get yourself in trouble. However, heads-up against a high hand these hands don't play as well (more later).
Starting hand values change quite a bit depending on the skill of your opponents and the number of people contesting the pot. For lower limit games, you really want to stick to three low cards since these pots are going to be multi-way.
For higher limit games you want high pairs, 3-low cards with an Ace, and stay away from razz type hands since most often the pot will be heads-up. With razz hands, you make your low only to get your money back. So low starting hands in higher limit games really need some type of high potential.
A lot of this "just depends" . If you have a hand like (JK)K and there are low cards and aces yet to act, you're best to just fold this. However, if you find that you are against the bringin and in late position then this same hand is worth quite a bit.
This has already gotten to be much to long and I've only touched on why hand values shift. I'll leave people with this thought.
At http://twodimes.net, you can input heads up hand matchups and see how they do. ( I use a different program for ev vs multi-way.)
A terrible hand like (99)Q is actually a favorite vs a sexy hand like 234 when it is heads up.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=4469757
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 9s 9d qh - 2c 3h 4s
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
9s 9d Qh 170947 353314 146684 2 0 0 0 0.524
4s 2c 3h 146684 146684 353314 2 263779 0 0 0.476
So in summary, rolled hands are very strong. More common/likely starting hands have different values depending on the game you are in. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 4122
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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http://twodimes.net/h/?z=4469979
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 9h 9c qs - 2d 3d 4d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Qs 9c 9h 140799 288921 211079 0 0 0 0 0.430
4d 3d 2d 211079 211079 288921 0 263654 0 0 0.570
Notice how the ev changes when all three cards are suited. That was the discussion on low straight hands. When they're suited is when they have the power. 234r I don't consider a monster by any means. Also, LOL at the guy talking stud strategy then saying "on the flop". In 7 card Stud games there is no flop or turn, however 7th street is also called the river. |
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nimbus
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Big Slick x13x wrote: |
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=4469979
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 9h 9c qs - 2d 3d 4d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Qs 9c 9h 140799 288921 211079 0 0 0 0 0.430
4d 3d 2d 211079 211079 288921 0 263654 0 0 0.570
Notice how the ev changes when all three cards are suited. That was the discussion on low straight hands. When they're suited is when they have the power. |
Yes. I didn't want to go through all nuances of the game. Of course I would much more want 234s than 234o. However, my example was to focus on the hands you are more likely to get. You are much more likely (sixteen times as likely) to have 234o than 234s.
| Big Slick x13x wrote: |
| 234r I don't consider a monster by any means. |
I don't think I said monster. I said sexy to imply that people think it is much better than a high pair heads-up |
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Pokergal812
Pair
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 47
Location: Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| very interesting -- been just starting to play more of this game. thanks to all who posted |
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ltseven
High Card
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| 555 is the best starting hand in stud/8 , nh Jbrennan. |
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whyucallin
High Card
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| personally i prefer to start with pretty much any 3 small connectors . if they are suited so much the better! just made a wheel on 5th street today !!! with 542 starting hand! A on 4th 3 on 5th . can you say " SCOOP " ????? but rolled up trips are great too especially As 4s & 5s love the 4s & 5s cause you make so many str8s so difficult to make. but i think too many people play them too strong & wind up in a split pot heads up with a razz player. a friend & i conducted a little expiriment a couple weeks ago. we gave 3 imaginary players a 3 card starting hand & a stack of chips. hand #1 As 2s 4s #2 6 4 3 rainbow #3 K K 9 each imaginary player put in 2 chips b4 we dealt out the remaining cards for each hand. each of our players retained their 3 starting cards & the next hand was dealt till one remained. we did this 3 times till 2 players busted out . twice the K K 9 finished last with one 2nd place finish the A 2 4 suited won three consecutive matches !!! * BTW stan better go back & reread Super System II |
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tjs545
High Card
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to comment on the original post... that after all 7 cards are out the best possible hand is A234567 with the 3-7 suited for a straight flush.
I actually disagree with the original poster although it's really just semantics...
I would argue that the best hand would be A2345(suited)55, giving you a wheel for the low and straight flush for the high this also makes it much more difficult for an opponent to take half of our low pot (which is more likely then someone getting a better straight flush for the high) since there is only one 5 available for their wheel.
As for the other discussion, in a multi-way pot the 3 suited babies are a great hand because of the great scoop potential, in a heads up pot i like a hand that's got high potential like split pairs because it's unlikely that my opponent will make a low he's drawing too.
For rolled up trips obviously my first choice is AAA but then i like 222-888 which i can slow play against a big hand who thinks im going low. That's all I've got for now, and I agree with whyyoucallin Super System 2 has a great stud H/L section written by Todd Brunson |
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