Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker   FAQ   Search    Register   Profile  Log in to check your private messages  Log in  Online Poker Forum - How do I get people off their draw? Goto page 1, 2  Next          Online Poker Forum Home -> Fixed Limit Strategy Discussion Author Message cheecho Straight Flush Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 378 Location: The Beach Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: How do I get people off their draw? I have been getting really pissed off at these guys hitting draws on me when I'm out of position with the best hand. Example: .50/1.00 in the SB w/ 8 10 , 3 callers + the blinds limp. Flop is J 7 9 . I bet out hoping to get raised, so I can re-raise. I get 2 callers, so I am putting 1 of them on the flush draw the other a str8 draw and/or bottom pair. Turn is 6 , I bet out as to not give any free cards. 1 caller - I have him pegged on the flush draw. River 2 - I fugure he got it - and check/call to his flush. This hand happened to me today - but seems to be a common problem when out of position. Is there anything that I can do, or is that just the way it is with limit? due to the high pot odds with multiple callers. Thanks for any expert advise. Back to top UFO1947 Alien Interrogator Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 3025 Location: NS, Canada Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Similar thing happened to me at the Casino the other day, that's the problem with limit hold'em Good luck in the future Back to top jack-actionhero Message Board Junkie Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 1046 Location: Minnesota Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: You can check/raise the flop AND turn so he gets stuck paying you double for each card. Check/Raise is your most powerful play in limit poker IMO. Back to top krazybangs Message Board Junkie Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 1373 Location: Beyond Tilt Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Make them pay.. higher limits people wont chase a gut shot 8% draw.... Back to top DevilfishFan Royal Flush Joined: 09 Sep 2005 Posts: 906 Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: You did all you could do. If the player frequently bets his draws then you check raise. I mix it up. So if you checked to me in that spot I would have probably checked it right along and taken the free card. You checked the river, saving that big bet. That's what limit is. Losing the least in spots like that and getting the most when you're the one with the flush. It's part of the game. Back to top KGBlovesOreos Moderator Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 5318 Location: VA Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: How do I get people off their draw? cheecho wrote: Is there anything that I can do, or is that just the way it is with limit? due to the high pot odds with multiple callers. Thanks for any expert advise. well, i've started to use this certain move against players if i knew they were on the draw... if they are the type that will chase as longs as the odds are ok, i may check the flop, then bet the turn... by doing this, yes, you may give them the card they need, but you are also giving them insufficient odds to chase... for example, say the blinds were 30/60, and i had AJ (limped in preflop- pot = 60) and the flop came J-d-3h-6d... if i KNEW that they had something like a flush draw, i may, though not often, check the flop and bet the full 60 on the turn (if the draw misses)... by doing this, you are giving them a 2:1 proposition on a 4:1 shot, so they are incorrectly chasing if they call you... this move is risky because you're giving your opponent a free card, but if they chase on the turn, mathematically, you will come out a winner... Back to top DevilfishFan Royal Flush Joined: 09 Sep 2005 Posts: 906 Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: The hard part in that equation is figuring out they're on a draw after they check to you Back to top BOYNAMEDSUE Moderator Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7386 Location: Toronto Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: You can't, at least not in limit holdem. Because so many people see flops in limit it's correct to chase draws. So you have to adapt. Stop playing big pots with AA or KK, and start playing more hands like 9Ts, JTs, QJs, and KQs. These are the best hands in no-foldem limit holdem. Back to top Pil Sung Four of a Kind Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 253 Location: Georgia Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: BOYNAMEDSUE wrote: So you have to adapt. Stop playing big pots with AA or KK, and start playing more hands like 9Ts, JTs, QJs, and KQs. These are the best hands in no-foldem limit holdem. This is wrong. While suited connecters do play better with more people, to say they are better than AA or KK is way off the mark. A more correct answer is that big suited connectors play well in no-foldem holdem, and that AA or KK will be beaten more often, but the AA or KK will still win more frequently than suited connectors. The problem here is that too many people think that AA is an unbeatable hand, and will still ram-n-jam on a 9d 8d 7c flop. Going back to the OP's question. I would have gone for a checkraise, and bet the turn. But I also think that KGB's method works too. Although it may not matter at the limits you're playing. It's hard for players at that level to fold for $1-2 more. And as griffinlord said in your other post, you want them to call. You just don't want them to catch Back to top deadmoney314 Message Board Junkie Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 3226 Location: grunching through reply posts Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:12 pm    Post subject: ... I've been trying to post this for liek a week. Here ya go. cheecho wrote: I have been getting really pissed off at these guys hitting draws on me when I'm out of position with the best hand. Yup, part of what defines you as a poker player is how you deal with losses. cheecho wrote: Example: .50/1.00 in the SB w/ 8 10 , 3 callers + the blinds limp. Good call, but you have to connect somehow with the flop to continue. cheecho wrote: Flop is J 7 9 . I bet out hoping to get raised, so I can re-raise. I get 2 callers, so I am putting 1 of them on the flush draw the other a str8 draw and/or bottom pair. One thing that is handy when you post a HH is to let us know information on your opponents. Its too hard to give advice here without knowing what types of cards you've seen your opp play or if they are ag or passive. There are two lines you can play here, slow play or bet like you did. If the late pos('s) are aggressive the check raise has the most value because the people in the middle will get caught having to call two instead of one for any draws and with that many people seeing the flop this is what I would prefer. If the table is passive you cannot give a free card here and I don't mind betting strong hands strong. Too many times people go overboard with fancy play syndrome. As mentioned earlier, the flush draw is correct to call here and you were correct to bet. cheecho wrote: Turn is 6 , I bet out as to not give any free cards. 1 caller - I have him pegged on the flush draw. River 2 - I fugure he got it - and check/call to his flush. Again, you were correct to bet and he was correct to call given the size of the pot. Don't be ashamed of making these +EV plays, on average you will take that pot 4 out of 5 times (although you will distinctly remember the 1 time that you are beat). cheecho wrote: This hand happened to me today - but seems to be a common problem when out of position. Is there anything that I can do, or is that just the way it is with limit? due to the high pot odds with multiple callers. Thanks for any expert advice (sic). Again, knowing the tendancies of your opponents will allow you to adjust the price you lay your opponents if you can use the check-raise, but there is nothing wrong with how you played, it will make money in the long run. Every time I flop the nut straight I always begin wondering, OK whos gets to hit runner runner on me this time. Again, you will always remember the times when you flop a made hand and chalk up a loss. Good luck, Back to top BOYNAMEDSUE Moderator Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7386 Location: Toronto Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Pil Sung wrote: BOYNAMEDSUE wrote: So you have to adapt. Stop playing big pots with AA or KK, and start playing more hands like 9Ts, JTs, QJs, and KQs. These are the best hands in no-foldem limit holdem. This is wrong. While suited connecters do play better with more people, to say they are better than AA or KK is way off the mark. A more correct answer is that big suited connectors play well in no-foldem holdem, and that AA or KK will be beaten more often, but the AA or KK will still win more frequently than suited connectors. The problem here is that too many people think that AA is an unbeatable hand, and will still ram-n-jam on a 9d 8d 7c flop. Going back to the OP's question. I would have gone for a checkraise, and bet the turn. But I also think that KGB's method works too. Although it may not matter at the limits you're playing. It's hard for players at that level to fold for $1-2 more. And as griffinlord said in your other post, you want them to call. You just don't want them to catch I don't think you really got what I was saying. 'Better' and 'Stronger' are different. High suited connectors play better than high pairs in no-foldem limit holdem because they win the big pots, and most times you'll fold them on the flop, losing only a small pot. A penny saved is a penny earned. AA and KK are only one pair, and they usually don't improve. One pair doesn't win many big pots in no-foldem limit holdem. Back to top deadmoney314 Message Board Junkie Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 3226 Location: grunching through reply posts Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: ... This is at least an interesting debate and not without merit. The basic question here is that even though AA & KK have higher batting averages for the win--do other cards with lower winning percentages generate a better ROI. Think of it this way, AA & KK could have a high enough VP$IP vs. the hands BNS is describing that the offset in winning percentage is covered in the volume of the wins with the lesser hand. This is of course talking about no-foldem holdem which is interesting but rarely useful. If you understand these concepts you shouldn't be playing the micros anyway imho so it could just be a moot point. If someone has some .25/.50 fixed PT figures it would be interesting to post the money won on these hands to have a good comparison to fuel the debate. Just my thoughts... Back to top Pil Sung Four of a Kind Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 253 Location: Georgia Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: BOYNAMEDSUE wrote: I don't think you really got what I was saying. 'Better' and 'Stronger' are different. High suited connectors play better than high pairs in no-foldem limit holdem because they win the big pots, and most times you'll fold them on the flop, losing only a small pot. A penny saved is a penny earned. AA and KK are only one pair, and they usually don't improve. One pair doesn't win many big pots in no-foldem limit holdem. I agree with that high suited connectors are good to play in loose games because they are "fit-or-fold". But that doesn't mean that they are better than AA or KK, it just means that fewer people misplay them. You're first post sounded like you were saying that people should fold AA or KK in a loose game. That's just bad advice. Saying that people should play more cautiously after an ugly flop, is good advice. Back to top Jaconda78 Message Board Junkie Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4177 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:06 am    Post subject: Reading this, I became curious. To the batmobile (or pokertracker, as the case may be)! Looking at my stats for limit hold em from $0.25/$0.50 up to $30/$60, I find that my 4 most profitable hands, in BB/hand, are, in order: 1)KK (2.12 BB/hand) 2)AA (2.11 BB/hand) 3)QTs (2.10 BB/hand) - strange, I don't really know WHAT'S going on here 4)99 (1.66 BB/hand) My 4 least profitable hands are: 1) 77 (-1.55 BB/hand) - 3 very huge full house v full house hands and 5 set over set hands are largely responsible for this hand; 2) J9s (-1.41 BB/hand) - dont ask, I have no good excuse for this one 3) JTs (-1.23 BB/hand) - again, this should be massively profitable but isnt - ugh 4) KQs (-0.85 BB/hand) - this is a case of it being difficult to get value when I have the best hand, and being dominated a bit too often. I feel the need to mention that in NL, KQs is VERY profitable for me (1.29 BB/hand at limits $0.50/$1.00 up to $10.00/$20.00 NL) A few points: 1)big pairs are still by far my biggest winners. 2)honestly, I'm a bit upset - JTs and J9s should NOT be my biggest losers. Clearly I'm misplaying them somehow, and if I ever go back to limit, I'm gonna have to figure out these very large leaks; 3) I don't REALLY have enough hands here for a great analysis - only 6,000 hands across many limits. However, I think it's a decent basic analysis. I want to point out that I have made a fair amount of money at limit, including my first several thousand over at party poker, made playing 2/4 limit. And the biggest earners are the aces and kings - you just need to have the roll to ride out the swings and suckouts. Back to top CardDivine Straight Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 114 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: To answer the first question that was posted, there is no way to get people off of a 4 flush draw at .50/1 limit. The best you can do is jam the pot with all the money you have. They will hit their flush 35% of the time, and you will win 65% of the time. I think those are pretty good odds. 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