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jameric4 · Two Pair Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 57

Dealt KK utg. Raise 4 times BB and get 4 callers.

Flop is A,7,3.

Your remaining stack is slightly more than the pot.

What's your play?

Would your play be any different in cash vs. tourney?

What about in tourney on bubble with enough of a stack left to "fold to the money"?

bxball · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:42 am Post subject:

in a tournament i don't hesitate to check-fold this on the flop for more than a second, especially if you're looking to just make the money

in a cash game it depends on many more variables from the table.. i might throw out a value-bet bluff. if you're playing with decent players who are willing to fold hands like A-8 because you raised under the gun, it might be worth a shot. most likely i'd still check-fold this

Sabakka · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject:

Assuming this is a cash game...

0. reload preflop
1. if for any reason I do have to play KK with ~ 20 bb remaining at a table where 4x bb raise is not respected, I consider 2 options:
- bet 8xbb preflop and push any flop
- push preflop
2. As played, you are probably beat but you may be able to fold out a weak ace depending on your reads.

drtre1987 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2121

Sabakka · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject:

bxball · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject:

8bb?? that is honestly one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... i'm sorry if any offense is taken to this, but seriously... 8 big blinds? under the gun? hahaha absurd

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

Raise less PF, like 2.5-3 BBs. There's no need to make bigger raises with a stack that short. Once you get to this flop with this many opponents you can check/fold pretty comfortably.

drtre1987 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2121

HuJwang · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject:

Also you tell your opponents exactly what you have when you size your raises like that

Starvingwriter · Full House Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 174

I can't speak for cash games, because I've played almost exclusively in tournaments.

If you're early in a tournament, this is an easy check fold. There are likely players in the pot with with weak aces, and most importantly, there is no way they're going to fold it, because, as they say, you can't bluff poor players, because they won't know enough to fold.

You have two extra options later in a tournament. The first is to put out a fairly decent sized continuation bet. You could pull down the pot, perhaps getting weak aces to fold, especially if you're close to the bubble.

Another option is to check. Someone will put a bet out there with their ace. When they do, the others will likely fold (if someone does call the original bet or reraise, then you have an easy fold). When it comes back around to you, throw in a substantial reraise. You can assume your opponents are unlikely to have AK, since you have two kings in hand already. If they don't, they have to be wondering if you are check raising them with AK or two pair, and they may lay down the hand. Again, I'd never advocate such a play early in a tournament, but closer to the bubble or early in the money, a play like this can win you a ton of chips you have no right to otherwise. Smile

The final option (and this one is my favorite!) is to check, then call the raiser if they put out a modest bet. This is particularly useful if your opponent has a large chip stack. The reason? It's a long shot, but if they're holding an ace and your set hits on the turn, your implied odds are huge. (I will admit that while this works really well with small pocket pairs, I'm not as sure about KK, as with three preflop callers, it's possible one or both of the remaining kings have been folded, leaving you drawing dead.)

Both of those plays are bluffs, of course, but keeping in mind that AK is probably not out there (but your opponent doesn't know that) it seems like a solid time to go for it.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 8151 Location: Sweden

Trying to bluff unknowns off of top pair isn't going to be a good idea if your goal is to make money. They're not calling PF with their A-rag just to fold when they hit a hand that good.

Also, the implied odds of hitting a set aren't huge. Hero started the hand with 20 BBs and has already put 4 of them into the pot. Calling more than a minbet in the hopes of hitting a 19:1 or so shot generally isn't going to be profitable with 100 BBs behind, let alone the 20 in the OP or the <50 you'll pretty much always have in most tournaments.

mistaken69 · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:15 am Post subject:

bxball · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:24 am Post subject:

mistaken: i'm not sure if that's supposed to be an insult or not but if 4 people can cold call your 4bb raise from UTG you're looking at a losing hand with two kings here. the other option with this guy's stack is to move in, which REEKS of a big pair that missed the flop

drtre1987 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2121

bxball · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:36 am Post subject:

[quote="drtre1987"][quote="bxball"]
most likely i'd still check-fold this
most likely i'd still check-fold this
most likely i'd still check-fold this
most likely i'd still check-fold this
most likely i'd still check-fold this
most likely i'd still check-fold this

So you think that someone will call your UTG raise with A8 and fold when they hit an ace? Then why are they even calling with A8 in the first place? People that are calling those raises with A rag hands aren't likely to fold when they hit and trying to bluff them is really bad.[/quote]

not to sound like a dick, but you obviously haven't played enough to realize how many bad players there are out there. I've seen hundreds of players call with an A-rag because it's suited, or for whatever reason then fold because they don't like their kicker when they hit. it's a terrible play but it's one that's made by weak players way more often than you'd think.

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