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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6277
Location: counting my blessings
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 Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: 50NL HU Video - Honest_Rob vs drtre1987 |
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I just played a HU match with drtre1987. Please give feedback on the video. The video will be up soon.
Video: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QXCM69RF |
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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6277
Location: counting my blessings
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here are your stats from my PT:
VPIP 35.81
PF raise 30.57
AF 5.26
Button Raise % 48.25
Your net win in BB $66.90
Net win from SB -$16.80
I know I talked to you on aim about this, but I'll put it here too. Your VPIP & PFR is very low. On HU, you should be playing a lot more hands. Also, one strange stat I found on you was that you actually lost money OTB. That is a very bad stat to have HU. If I didn't play like a donk vs some of your 3 bets, then it would have evened up really quickly. You can expect to have a lot of losing matches if you are losing money from the button.
Now this could come from a number of factors. I wish I could find the stat, but it might be that your cbet% is really high/low. IIRC, yours was close to right, but I'm not sure. I think there were a couple of instances where you checked and should have bet, and some where you bet when you should have checked. Once the video is up, I'll be able to elaborate on that more.
But specifically, you should have bet out your JJ on the AJx flop. My calling range from the BB will contain a lot of A8+ and Axs hands. I think that checking there is going to lose you a lot of value, especially in position. A lot of villians will ck/r or ck/c there with an Ax and many will just float you with nothing or a weak draw there to represent Ax.
Oh, I think that your 3 bet raise size is a little large. I always go with pot+1bb. You did get a lot of folds out of me by doing this, but you will often have a higher EV by letting your opponents call you and give up OTF or call and commit light. For instance, I weak opponent might get frustrated if you 3 bet a lot and might stack off with KT in a 3 bet pot if they hit a pair. If you just reraise to $5.50 like you did, then they will rarely call your 3 bet and you miss out on them stacking off lightly. |
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feihua
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 2075
Location: Asakura, Fukuoka Japan
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: 50NL HU Video - Honest_Rob vs drtre1987 |
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| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| Please give feedback on the video. |
Turn the hip hop down. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
| For instance, I weak opponent might get frustrated if you 3 bet a lot and might stack off with KT in a 3 bet pot if they hit a pair. |
FWIW this seems really standard to me with KT vs someone who 3bets a lot. I also think that 3betting to 11 BBs instead of 10 is fine even if I personally prefer 10. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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2:30ish Raise J8o. This hand plays perfectly fine with position.
8:48 A7 is pretty much the lowest I’d ever call with there. I’d probably play it just by how tight the match was going, but that is definitely not a bad play. I normally use A8 as the cutoff point for defending, but since the match has been so tight, I see no problem calling there.
10:00 That is a pretty easy 3 bet with 54s there. With how tight I had been playing and how tight you had been playing, I think you could easily get away with a steal attempt there. But only raise to $5. Your $5.50 3 bet raise is just a little bit too big.
10:20 43s is just a little bit too small for most cases. But you can throw it in for a 3 bet sometimes.
11:35 That is an easy fold OTT with JT on K7XA with 3 spades. Making moves on that board will mostly be –EV. While I could easily float there, that board hits so much of my range. And with the 3rd flush card hitting, a raise by you there could easily be seen as a semi bluff raise. Its just too hard to play back on that type of flop with air.
12:15 I don’t like your 3 bet w/ Q9o. While you are on the right track of thinking (not wanting to get run over), that hand just plays really bad in 3 bet pots. If I continue in the hand, my calling range is way ahead of Q9. Whenever a Q or 9 hits and I don’t fold OTF, you will likely get stacked. I’d much rather prefer 3 betting with hands like 54s, JTo, T9o, or something along those lines. You want hands that will give you good draws. With Q9 I would just call there.
14:30 3 bet KQ. If you just flat call, it confuses the hell out of your opponent when they have JJ and don’t know what to put you on when the flop comes like that. . For anyone wondering why I played JJ like that….I don’t know. I was wondering what could he have there and all I could come up with was QT, a draw, maybe Q9, and a huge maybe on QJ since I had 2 jacks. I really thought that KQ and AQ are in his 3 betting range. But back to the point for you Rob, do 3 bet your KQ there. That should definitely be in your 3 betting range.
17:50 Flatting with ATo is good there. A 3 bet preflop folds out all of my worse aces. And you end up getting no value from my other hands when an A hits on the flop.
19:50ish I kinda like the donk bet with KQ there. I think I’m checking back a lot of hands on that flop and I might even fold 2nd pair there to your donk bet. Oh, and 3 bet pf.
20:30 3 bet KK pretty much no matter what.
28:25 I don’t 3 bet 77 there. I tend to flat with it a lot and float or ck/r a lot of flops with it.
35:35 I wouldn’t 3 bet K6s.
40:20 Really hate the 3 bet w/ Q7o. You are basically just raising with air, so you might as well raise with a hand that can flop straight and flush draws. The J9 a couple of hands later is definitely a better hand to 3 bet with.
45:30 I don’t really like the idea of calling lightly because of your “implied odds”. You have to hit a perfect flop AND have me flop a really good 2nd best hands. So definitely don’t think too much into implied odds. Since people’s ranges are so much looser HU, it really doesn’t matter that much. That’s not to say that implied odds don’t matter at all, but I would not use that as an excuse to just call lightly OOP. Calling lightly OOP in hopes of flopping gin or folding is just bleeding chips.
However, one instance you might want to call lighter because of implied odds might be calling a 3 bet a little lighter when deep. This is because my 3 betting range is a lot smaller than my button raising range. I will be much more likely to stack off in a 3 bet pot when I flop a pair than I would in a non 3 bet pot.
61:00 I did have T8 of clubs. No joke. This is a pretty good example of why you should be 3 betting with these hands instead of Q9o hands. You can hit a flop like this that gives you overcards, straight draws, and flush draws which give you a ton of equity. With Q9o, you can only hit a couple of specific flops that give you a straight draw and you will be stacking off with pairs a lot. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
FWIW this seems really standard to me with KT vs someone who 3bets a lot. I also think that 3betting to 11 BBs instead of 10 is fine even if I personally prefer 10. |
Yeah, my example is not that great. It is probably a marginal spot and depends a lot on the situation. From the experience I've had (which is a lot less than you) I typically don't stack off in those spots. So I do admit I can be wrong here.
I guess 11bb is not that bad, but I definately think that is the max you can 3 bet. It doesn't make as much as a difference as I may have origanally sounded in my OP, but I do think that 10 is a little bit better. |
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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6277
Location: counting my blessings
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| drtre1987 wrote: |
2:30ish Raise J8o. This hand plays perfectly fine with position.
8:48 A7 is pretty much the lowest I’d ever call with there. I’d probably play it just by how tight the match was going, but that is definitely not a bad play. I normally use A8 as the cutoff point for defending, but since the match has been so tight, I see no problem calling there.
10:00 That is a pretty easy 3 bet with 54s there. With how tight I had been playing and how tight you had been playing, I think you could easily get away with a steal attempt there. But only raise to $5. Your $5.50 3 bet raise is just a little bit too big.
I was raising to $5.50 just to cut down on my opponents implied odds and increase the chance that I just win the pot preflop. I was doing this against all my opponents. Against that loose guy I played it had the added bonus of getting more money into the pot when I was likely ahead because he called almost all of my 3-bets anyway. I was trying to keep the game simpler since I have little experience.
10:20 43s is just a little bit too small for most cases. But you can throw it in for a 3 bet sometimes.
haha really I was just joking there.
11:35 That is an easy fold OTT with JT on K7XA with 3 spades. Making moves on that board will mostly be –EV. While I could easily float there, that board hits so much of my range. And with the 3rd flush card hitting, a raise by you there could easily be seen as a semi bluff raise. Its just too hard to play back on that type of flop with air.
Yeah a lot of times I was just trying to think through hands and decide what a good spot to bluff might be even though I really had no intention of putting any more money in. The one or two times I did actually try to bluff with air it pretty much blew up in my face.
12:15 I don’t like your 3 bet w/ Q9o. While you are on the right track of thinking (not wanting to get run over), that hand just plays really bad in 3 bet pots. If I continue in the hand, my calling range is way ahead of Q9. Whenever a Q or 9 hits and I don’t fold OTF, you will likely get stacked. I’d much rather prefer 3 betting with hands like 54s, JTo, T9o, or something along those lines. You want hands that will give you good draws. With Q9 I would just call there.
Ok I'm getting a better idea of solid 3-betting hands now.
14:30 3 bet KQ. If you just flat call, it confuses the hell out of your opponent when they have JJ and don’t know what to put you on when the flop comes like that. . For anyone wondering why I played JJ like that….I don’t know. I was wondering what could he have there and all I could come up with was QT, a draw, maybe Q9, and a huge maybe on QJ since I had 2 jacks. I really thought that KQ and AQ are in his 3 betting range. But back to the point for you Rob, do 3 bet your KQ there. That should definitely be in your 3 betting range.
Ok but then what kind of hands would I just be calling with? I guess I kind of have the bottom of my 3-betting range in the top of my calling range right now?
17:50 Flatting with ATo is good there. A 3 bet preflop folds out all of my worse aces. And you end up getting no value from my other hands when an A hits on the flop.
19:50ish I kinda like the donk bet with KQ there. I think I’m checking back a lot of hands on that flop and I might even fold 2nd pair there to your donk bet. Oh, and 3 bet pf.
Yeah on second thought I should suspect that you will check that flop a lot for fear of being c/r on such a scary looking flop.
20:30 3 bet KK pretty much no matter what.
haha yeah I was just over thinking.
28:25 I don’t 3 bet 77 there. I tend to flat with it a lot and float or ck/r a lot of flops with it.
So with a lot of those middle pairs you just call and kind of go into check call mode on the flop, unless it's all unders?
35:35 I wouldn’t 3 bet K6s.
Yeah I was just trying to figure out spots to play back at you.
40:20 Really hate the 3 bet w/ Q7o. You are basically just raising with air, so you might as well raise with a hand that can flop straight and flush draws. The J9 a couple of hands later is definitely a better hand to 3 bet with.
Just trying to play back at you. I wanted to 3-bet that J9 too lol.
45:30 I don’t really like the idea of calling lightly because of your “implied odds”. You have to hit a perfect flop AND have me flop a really good 2nd best hands. So definitely don’t think too much into implied odds. Since people’s ranges are so much looser HU, it really doesn’t matter that much. That’s not to say that implied odds don’t matter at all, but I would not use that as an excuse to just call lightly OOP. Calling lightly OOP in hopes of flopping gin or folding is just bleeding chips.
Well I wasn't planning on calling with just total crap but just loosening up a little because you were raising so much.
However, one instance you might want to call lighter because of implied odds might be calling a 3 bet a little lighter when deep. This is because my 3 betting range is a lot smaller than my button raising range. I will be much more likely to stack off in a 3 bet pot when I flop a pair than I would in a non 3 bet pot.
61:00 I did have T8 of clubs. No joke. This is a pretty good example of why you should be 3 betting with these hands instead of Q9o hands. You can hit a flop like this that gives you overcards, straight draws, and flush draws which give you a ton of equity. With Q9o, you can only hit a couple of specific flops that give you a straight draw and you will be stacking off with pairs a lot.
haha yeah I believe you. At the time I didn't think that was in your range so I was surprised when you said it and cursing myself for not making a stupid call. |
Oh and any idea about the button losses? I'm pretty sure my c-bet percent is high. I c-bet a lot of flops. Do you think it could just be an anomaly? |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Your calling range from the BB should depend a lot on the match, but in general, I like calling with A8-AT, A2s-ATs, K9, KT, K8s-KTs, Q8s-QJs, Q9-QJ, 22-88, and sometimes call with T9o/97o type of hands. Sometimes I even like to call with a 87s type of hand if I expect to get played back at if I 3 bet. These are just general ranges though. It really depends on the situation and your opponent's ranges. You can make arguements for loosening and tightening that calling range or adding hands into your 3 bet range.
Some other people on the forum have a little bit different ranges, you just have to find out what works best for you. For instance, I know mistaken likes 3 betting Axs, but that doesn't work well with my game as of now. I'd be interested in hearing other people's general ranges here, like from HuJ, Riddim, mistaken, or CD. I think my range is pretty solid, but there might be some small mistakes in mine. |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
So with a lot of those middle pairs you just call and kind of go into check call mode on the flop, unless it's all unders?
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Yeah. Sometimes I ck/r, other times I ck/c. It depends on the flop nad the opponent. But 3 betting just makes the pot way too big for a mid pair and can really get you in trouble. There are times though when it can be right to 3 bet them (like maybe when a lot deeper), but as a standard, I just call.
| Quote: |
| Oh and any idea about the button losses? I'm pretty sure my c-bet percent is high. I c-bet a lot of flops. Do you think it could just be an anomaly? |
I wish I knew how to see what your cbet% was, but I can't seem to find it on PT. It might have been too high. |
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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6277
Location: counting my blessings
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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bump-a-ments.
Anyone else want to watch and give comments? |
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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2189
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Re: 50NL HU Video - Honest_Rob vs drtre1987 |
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| feihua wrote: |
| Honest_Rob wrote: |
| Please give feedback on the video. |
Turn the hip hop down. |
not an option, imo. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6431
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| tbh watching 1 table for an hour isn't really my cup of tea. i will get around to watching it though. |
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