| What Starting Hand Causes you More Problems? |
| A-K offsuit |
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33% |
[ 7 ] |
| J-J |
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66% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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Message |
skeeter1114
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2496
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 Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Trickier Starting Hand: AK or JJ? |
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I know some people have said they find A-K very difficult to play. Others think the same is true for J-J. So, I was curious to see what people think is the trickier starting hand.
For me personally, it's A-K. With J-J, I can usually get away from this hand pre-flop if it goes to a 3rd raise from a someone who hasn't been a maniac. I also look at it that JJ can only be beaten by 3 hands, and only 3 others would it be in a race with. With A-K, there are only 2 hands that put AK into deep trouble.
I also keep going back and forth on AK. Because it's only dominated by 2 hands, it is a premium hand. However, it is not a pair, and any pair 2-2 through Q-Q also beat it. Whereas J-J, only 3 hands can beat it. I think many people, as well as me, can overplay A-K pre-flop, especially to a re-raise. Probably because 80% of the time, you're in a race, 15% of the time you have your opponent dominated, and 5% you're dominated. My numbers may be off there but I'm just trying to explain my thinking of why I struggle with A-K. If anyone has advice how to best play either of these hands, I would appreciate it. Thanks. |
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Honest_Rob
Forum Pro
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 6277
Location: counting my blessings
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd say JJ is trickier. With AK if you miss the flop it's pretty easy to get away from it. With JJ so many times the flop will come all undercards or one over/two unders and it's trickier to access where you are. When it comes to 3-bet and 4-bet spots preflop they're both pretty tricky but really so is any hand except AA/KK. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, AK is usually the nuts PF and postflop as well as long as you spike a pair so I'll have to go with JJ. |
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kcstoltz
Royal Flush
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 621
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| i vote AK offsuite the only reason being is that i lost more with that than a pair of jj |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 6431
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kcstoltz wrote: |
| i vote AK offsuite the only reason being is that i lost more with that than a pair of jj |
I don't know if I've ever lost with four Jacks. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally, I find that it's easier to walk away from AK. But you play JJ differently to AK anyway. Personally with JJ, I want to get rid of as many people as possible. With AK I want people in the pot (not including garbage like 85) incase it hits. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Riddim wrote: |
| Well, AK is usually the nuts PF and postflop as well as long as you spike a pair so I'll have to go with JJ. |
AK is hardly the nuts preflop. Even 22 will still be ahead of AK 70% of the time postflop (and no that's not a recommendation for 22). The only thing that AK has is good potential. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| HuJwang wrote: |
| kcstoltz wrote: |
| i vote AK offsuite the only reason being is that i lost more with that than a pair of jj |
I don't know if I've ever lost with four Jacks. |
I don't have the exact odds of getting quads, but I'm sure that it's less than 1% so that's a silly statement. |
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Totes2Techs
Full House
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
| HuJwang wrote: |
| kcstoltz wrote: |
| i vote AK offsuite the only reason being is that i lost more with that than a pair of jj |
I don't know if I've ever lost with four Jacks. |
I don't have the exact odds of getting quads, but I'm sure that it's less than 1% so that's a silly statement. |
The first Red part, along with the 2nd Red part is a joke Branch. Notice the first Red part as written by someone else, says "a PAIR of JJ" or a pair of a pair.......why? That's funny! |
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Totes2Techs
Full House
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| As far as the OP, I don't know if JJ is harder or not, but I don't like them as much because they are a made hand PF and easier to feel attached to. If you raise with them PF, any callers you may get most likely hold a pair or something with A's or paint. It's trickier to play JJ post flop because you really never have a solid idea of where you stand once the flop hits. Any A, K or Q and any unders could have made your opponent an over pair or set. I have a difficult time sticking with them if I've gotten raised OTF or OTT. |
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nefl1
Two Pair
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Jax Beach FLA
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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There is a reason AK is called walking back to texas. I have made
alot of money with JJ and gone bust with AKo more times than I
care to mention . Ill dump my JJ on a nasty board . |
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drtre1987
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2121
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
| Riddim wrote: |
| Well, AK is usually the nuts PF and postflop as well as long as you spike a pair so I'll have to go with JJ. |
AK is hardly the nuts preflop. Even 22 will still be ahead of AK 70% of the time postflop (and no that's not a recommendation for 22). The only thing that AK has is good potential. |
 Of course AK is never the nuts preflop. But it will harldy ever be that big of a dog against any hand. It is a coin flip or a favorite over any pair or unpaired hand under AA and KK. It is only a coin flip or better against hands other than KK/AA (which is unlikely since you have an A and K), which will always be +EV with all of the dead money in the pot. Unless you are up against a nit preflop, you will always have the best of it getting it in preflop against their range. |
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bdbranch
Banned
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 503
Location: At home wdyt. Btw. I'm not opinionated all the time, umm can you be opinionated when you're asleep
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Totes2Techs wrote: |
| bdbranch wrote: |
| HuJwang wrote: |
| kcstoltz wrote: |
| i vote AK offsuite the only reason being is that i lost more with that than a pair of jj |
I don't know if I've ever lost with four Jacks. |
I don't have the exact odds of getting quads, but I'm sure that it's less than 1% so that's a silly statement. |
The first Red part, along with the 2nd Red part is a joke Branch. Notice the first Red part as written by someone else, says "a PAIR of JJ" or a pair of a pair.......why? That's funny! |
Don't know about the first bit. The second bit is a joke. After rereading it, yes it's amusing. |
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Riddim
Moderator
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| bdbranch wrote: |
| Riddim wrote: |
| Well, AK is usually the nuts PF and postflop as well as long as you spike a pair so I'll have to go with JJ. |
AK is hardly the nuts preflop. Even 22 will still be ahead of AK 70% of the time postflop (and no that's not a recommendation for 22). The only thing that AK has is good potential. |
The nuts as in I'm getting as much money in with it pre-flop as I can, although I guess I should've added that it's no longer true when the stacks become significantly deeper than 100 BBs. AK has way more than just potential. It's a big favorite against any unpaired hand and crushes all other good unpaired hands while only being a big underdog against two hands. In addition, us having an ace and a king cuts the possible combinations of AA and KK left in the deck in half.
In a game that's aggressive pre-flop the best way to play it will usually be to just get it in. Not only is it profitable on its own, but it wides the range of hands with which we get all-in pre-flop by quite a bit, making it easier to get action on other big hands. When it comes to getting it in PF, AK is the 4th strongest hand in the deck vs. at least most reasonable ranges. |
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skeeter1114
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2496
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Ok, let me pose this scenario, which maybe was what I was trying to get at.
First hand of a SNG/MTT
Full Tilt Poker Game #123456789: Table 1 - 15/30- No Limit Hold'em - 00:00:01 ET - 2008/05/03
Seat 1: Fred (1,500)
Seat 2: Wilma (1,500)
Seat 3: Barney (1,500)
Seat 4: Betty (1,500)
Seat 5: Pebbles (1,500)
Seat 6: Bam-Bam (1,500)
Seat 7: Dino (1,500)
Seat 8: Mr. Slate (1,500)
Seat 9: The Great Gazoo (1,500)
Fred posts the small blind of 15
Wilma posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Barney [??]
Barney raises to 90
Betty folds
Pebbles folds
Bam-Bam folds
Dino raises to 300
Mr. Slate folds
The Great Gazoo folds
Fred folds
Wilma folds
Barney ??
How do you proceed here with
A.) A-K
B.) J-J
This is the situation I refer to as being a tough one. My first instinct here is to shove all-in, especially at the low limits (all that I play). But, should I be willing to race in this situation every time or fold to my 90 chips and wait for a better spot. Do you play one hand differently than the other, and if so, why? |
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