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bisepost · High Card Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Posts: 16

in interest of full disclosure, I've only played Razz a few times (probably 8 or so freerolls)

It seems to me that razz is mostly about discipline and not skill; Play smooth 8 highs or better third streets (depending on the situation), put money in the pot when you have the best hand, fold when you're beat (or think you're really behind), steal the blinds/pot when you can get away with it and sometimes purposefully lose relatively small pots to keep table image not super tight. Also, try to keep track to make sure your cards are dead and the ones you need are relatively live.

Granted, freerolls draw a lot of donkeys but I got 10th place in my second freeroll, made it to the top 100 3 other times and top 200 3 more times (horribly sucked out one of those times). Once freerolls get to the top 100, levels are so high that luck becomes much larger of a factor.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any skill in razz. I just know super general poker theory... nothing too spectacular.

Sure, at the higher levels there must be a lot of skill because the top echelon of players seem to win more often than not, but I don't see where the skill comes in.

My question is where's the skill? I'm not trying to be demeaning to any hard-core razz players... rather, I'm genuinely curious. My experience has not shown me that skill is a huge factor... just discipline not to chase. A well-programed computer could probably win a lot of money aggregately.

KGBlovesOreos · Moderator Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 5318 Location: VA

Deano7889 · High Card Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 11

I would say that you are actually a pretty good razz player by the way you have figured out all that stuff about it. I think that once someone is good in poker, the variation of the game doesnt matter as much as people think. Once you have the philosophy of poker down, you can play any game. Granted there are other minor details that set the great apart from the good in each variation, but that takes years of practice and discipline.

Alex3733 · High Card Joined: 02 Nov 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Oregon

I have only played about 5 Razz Tourneys........I like your analysis very much. Thanks for the tips Smile

bisepost · High Card Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Posts: 16

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 136

rich_lady · Pair Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 50

but if your opponents had that much skill why would they be playing a freeroll in the first place?

I guess thats why old no skill Chris Fergusen plays them lol. No skill needed.

asfispimp · Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject:

well Im back, but anyways, imo the skill in razz comes down to knowing how your opponents play. This is virtually the skill in any poker game, but using the information about how your opponents play and what cards they have against them. In razz, this is easier than most games since you can see some of the cards your opponents have. For example, as you were saying raise your good hands such as 3 to a wheel or 6 hi, that is a given. But, the skill comes in on 4th and later streets say youre at a 5 handed cash game 2/4 and you have (A2)5 and you complete, it folds around to the player before the bringin who has (XX)6 he calls, I then hit a 7 he hits a 3. Its obvious to call if he bets, but your read on the player, did he pair or not? should I raise here? If he is a a donkey, Id raise right here, if he is a shark then I might just call here and play accordingly on later streets. On 5th we hit an 8 he hits a 2 we have A2(578) he has XX(632). We have a made 8 hi but our opponents board is pretty scary. Against an extremely solid player it might not be a bad idea to call once again because he is only playing good hole cards and there is a possiblity he may have paired. if we hit a J on 6th and he hits a K we can call again and if on the river its best to call again even if you improve, if you improve to a 7542A you could still be beat against a very strong player who has 6 hi. Even if you dont improve you have to call as youve pot committed yourself. thats my 2 cents lol

PokerAA · Message Board Junkie Joined: 24 Nov 2006 Posts: 1610

sloshedzeus · Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:47 am Post subject:

welcome back.

Zophar · Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:14 am Post subject:

I'd have to say there is a good bit of skill to razz if you're going to be really successful. Yes many hands play themselves out in a pretty abc manner, and no, most of these hands don't take much skill.

The skill IMO lies in 2 primary area's, understanding your equity in a hand at any given point while knowing when to fold/call/raise based on this info, and 5th-7th street play. The actions taken on 3rd and 4th street based on hand and position value is definitely important, but a bit easier to figure out. Alot of players focus solely on the cards they see. What also needs to be considered is opponents down card range compared to your current strength and redraw strength.
A common mistake made is folding on 6th when only 4 cards to a made hand. Typically if betting has occured on each street, the pot odds are there for a call(common scenario may be (A2)47Q10 vs. (XX)87J9). You're just under a 3/2 dog.

4s Tc 7c Ad Qd 2h 544 38.69 862 61.31 0 0.00 0.387
7s 2s Jc 8d 3d 9h 862 61.31 544 38.69 0 0.00 0.613
With the above type hand scenario, if you call 5th street, you are basically commiting to see 7th.

Often bets are missed on 5th+. I don't know how often I see a situation like this:
a 3 and 4 are dead(to even outs)
3rd
Hero completes
Villian calls
4th
Hero bets
Villian calls
5th
Hero- Ad 2h 3s 7c Kc
Villian-2s 4d 7s 8d Jc
Villian bets
Hero calls.

The bolded part is a huge error that many players make. This has to be raised if HU. Hero is actually a 3/2 favorite here. If your opponent who seems competent check/calls you here, he is likely better than average because he understands his equity at the time.
win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s 7c Ad Kd 2h 316539 63.31 183163 36.63 298 0.06 0.633
7s 2s Jc 8d 4d 183163 36.63 316539 63.31 298 0.06 0.367

Change K to 7(paired)

3s 7c Ad 7d 2h 316098 63.22 183623 36.72 279 0.06 0.632
7s 2s Jc 8d 4d 183623 36.72 316098 63.22 279 0.06 0.368

Even if hero pairs and villian catches a 9,

win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s 7c Ad 7d 2h 287679 57.54 212013 42.40 308 0.06 0.576
7s 2s 9c 8d 4d 212013 42.40 287679 57.54 308 0.06 0.424

Lastly I'd say that too many bets are missed on 7th. Either the best hands fail to bet or raise. If you put a villian on an 87 on 6th street and you make an 87432+ on 7th and it gets checked to you, bet it. Also, if both are still drawing to 87's on 6th and villian bets into you on 7th and you made a 87432+, raise it. Only 3 rough 8's beat us here(8743A, 8742A and 8732A) where you beat any 876 and 875(16 possible combo's). When to call with with 9's-J's on 7th takes a ton of playing time and is a whole other topic in and of itself.

SO there is skill in Razz. It really just breaks down to getting value out of minor edges and knowing when those edges are there. A few extra bets per session makes a huge difference in the long run.

BBCOACH44 · Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:18 am Post subject:

Welcome back Pimp. Great posts Pimp and Z.
Very informative......... 8)

sgspecial · Flush Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 136

Nilius85 · High Card Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 7

skill and luck at times

Johncx · Pair Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 40

Skill definately.

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