Online Poker Forum - Moving up with small bankroll?

Danduy · Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: Moving up with small bankroll?

I've been playing the 5$ and 10$ s&g's a few months now and quite some hours a day. But i can't seem to get may bankroll up.

The most hands i lose are to chasers to who call with bottom pair and fill up to two pair, a set or trips on the river. Also the chasers to gutshots seems to be the pain in the *ss because i pay them off by not putting them on that hand after seeing them call a flop and turn bet. And this happens most in the first 2 blind levels. (I must say i play tight and leaning a bit more to the conservative side in the early levels)
From this point on i see my chip stack quite crippled and that takes away my play when the blinds go up and i need to gamble more to get some chips wich is not favorable.
Now i don't complain about them, i love those guys at the table and they help me to cash. But it happens just a little to often to get my bankroll up. If there are three such players at the table, there sure will be one who will get my chips. I can whine and complain due to these sucker plays and their donk calls, but that doesn't help me much.

Now i've played a few 30$ - 50$ s&g's and i must say that these are more 'playable' and the players are much better and observant and when i lose a hand at these stakes i got outplayed more times in stead of getting drawn out. I seem to find more fun and competition at these levels but my bankroll doen't allow it. The learning process is also much better at these stakes and it feels quite comfortable. I've got a 350$ BR to play and this is nearly enough to play the 10$ s&g's but it stays steady for quite a while now and i can't get it up to play the 20$ or maybe 30$ s&g.

Off course i will draw out on somebody but that doesn't happen very often, it's more the other way, that i get drawn out. My hand holds up most of the times, but not that enough to cash enough and make some profit.

The way i play will get me to the bubble quite some time but on average but with a smaller stack then the looser players at the table. From there on i play for first place when i see the chance for it because i rather finish first once then third twice by folding and tighten up. In most cases the money goes in when i have the better hand.

Due to all this i do want to play the 20$ and 30$ sit & go's but if i get a bad rush or my play is off and i mess up (or even tilting once in a while) this bankroll will be gone in a short period of time.

I also noticed that if i loosen up at the first levels that my equity goes down a bit more then i'm playing now. So i don't know what is the problem here.

My average playing style:

* early stages: tight and conservative
- little or none draw chasing
- i avoid coin flips the best i can
- little blind defense and no stealing
- trying to see cheap flops in late position
- ...

* middle stages: tight and more aggressive
- putting more pressure on opponents in position
- raising more in position preflop
- a bit more blind defense and stealing
- ...

* late stages: looser and more aggressive play
- putting maximum pressure on the table
- blind stealing and restealing becomes a more routine play
- any sense of weakness will be charged

If there is someone with some advice, feel free to post. Because i'm a little stuck and i don't seem to find major errors in my playing style.
I see myself as i moderate player and i do make some mistakes from time to time like going in as a underdogg, but who doesn't Smile

lurgertor

itsldog · Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:36 am Post subject:

You could try grinding the $20 for a while. Put $200 towards it and let it ride. If you start losing then back to your 5/10 grind.

Let me start by saying by no means em I a pro or some kind of authority. I only have about 500 or SnG games logged here, but I do have a + ROI and consider myself better then average, when it comes to 9 man SnGs. I know if I find myself getting sucked out on a lot, I'm most likely over playing my hands to often. Don't be afraid to lay down top pair, especially early on. Don't worry about being a smaller stack nearing the bubble, most people are so bad 4/5 handed that its well worth it to lay down a hand to make it here. In addition, typically in the early levels, 1-3 maybe 4, i see the flop less then 8% almost always.

Also, do you multi table or just focus on 1 table?

Edit: On a side note, i've been on a horrible cold streak

Danduy

Ozzy52

Just a few points...

Danduy · Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:34 am Post subject:

Heya Ozzy,

Thanx for the good advice. I try to conserve the chips in early stages to move in later and gamble a little more.
I use the Pokertracker 3 software with HUD and helps me good to make the right dissicions. And i will give the tournament director a try. Never heard of it btw.

I caught myself going out in 9th place the other day.

I want to post HH, but since i'm at work i have no acces to it.

I was getting A-Q in the CO seat blinds 15-30, second hand. Raised it up a little (to 80) and got called by the big blind.

Flop came: A-7-3 rag.

Check to me and the continuation bet came arround half the pot and got called.
Hmmm, maybe an A-10 or in the worst case A-7 or 77 or 33.
KK would be reraising as would Queens and aces probebly.

Turn came a Q. Good card for me. Check to me again and i bet 65% of the pot. I got called again. Now i'm thinking that i'm going to get paid by an A-7 or so. River came a blank. And checked to me again.
If he had a good hand (77 or 33) he wanted to get value, because no straight or flushes where on the board so i had to put him on A-7.

And the big mistake came then: He checked to me, i went all-in for the last chips and got called by 77. Well, seems to me the 77 guy played it well and i get sucked in the pot by overplaying my hand and i really had to check it down and go on with the loss.

Since i've red the 's&g strategy' by Collin Moshman. I must say that i play these tournaments a lot better than before.

I'll go with the advice to see some less flops early and take the others on with a smaller stack on the bubble or 5 handed.

And also true that i need to making a steady win in the lower stakes before moving up, so i'll take that advice too and keep myself on the lower stakes in search for the errors i still make.

Azonicbh · Pair Joined: 02 Aug 2009 Posts: 44

Patience is the key to you right now. I looked you up on sharkscope and you've only played 63 games. If you play well , you'll go up in stakes in time. BUT GIVE IT SOME TIME. I mean , it's quite normal to break even or been losing / breaking even over 500 games if you are a good player. It shouldn't happen as often at the lower stakes , but it's still possible.

If I were you , I would refrain from playing more than 20 buy ins at a time. I don't know what your bankroll is , but unless you have 400$ or more ,don't play the 24$ games. Especially since the competition is much stiffer compared to the 6$/11$ games. There a lot of multi tabling regulars at those stakes.

Danduy · Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:22 am Post subject:

True, i’m a little impatience. But I can’t force it anyway so I have to learn to be patient.

Most of my beginning s&g hands I played on pokerstars but I find Full Tilt a better room to play, nicer graphs, a little faster pace.

When I look over the s&g I already played in pokertracker, I can find mistakes and some lousy reads. So if I can correct this errors I can take the outdrawing with it and make climb. I know that I only played a few, but the sooner I can find the errors, the better. Or else I’m making it a habit of playing with these mistakes.

But you guys are all right: Patience, tighter play, more aggressive play preflop, …

Anyway, yesterday I had a really off day. Hit nothing or a good hand against a better one. And when I was doing well, the drawing out came into play. It’s sucks to get outdrawn, but never the less I knew I went in with the better hand and I also sometimes forget that the better hand holds up more than the worst, but this is quickly forgotten when the best hand gets drawn out on.

Anyway, thanx for all the repleys and the tips. I’ll ‘try’ to get them to good use (I just have to stick to it).

Azonicbh · Pair Joined: 02 Aug 2009 Posts: 44

Ya , if you can fix some of those mistakes you're talking about , you should do well quite soon. But variance is inevitable ... I just recently had a 40 buy in down swing in 60$ turbo games ... It's not too bad if you have good bankroll management but at times I must admit you wonder when it will start going better. I was even told by a regular pro from full tilt that he said my game was quite good in that stretch (from what he saw at least). Ya I made some mistakes here and there , but overall I played well... Just didn't go my way. But that's poker and variance , you have to learn to deal with it and still play well. That's always why good bankroll management is so important.

Btw , that same pro said that it's not unusual to have a 50 buy in downswing. It's rare , but definitely can happen.

Hope this helps you put things into perspective.

Danduy · Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject:

It's nice to have a little back-up then. If a pro call tell you that you're doing ok, then you're fine i think.

Like you said, the bankroll on the sit & go's are really swingy Laughing

But when you go in with the best hand and doen't hold up you start wondering when it comes your way again.

I don't think i can survive a 50 buy-in downswing. I think it would mess up my game.

Anyway, i had a couple played today. Played tight and more agressive. Aces cracked, straight outdraw to a flush. But i still managed to cash a few so i'm a little down for today.

I also played some 26 buy-in guarantee for a shot to build up a bigger bankroll, i did well actually, but a steal went wrong a little bit so i needed to pass for the cash.

I still have a lot to learn and at poker it costs money, but with consistent playing and manage to see your own mistakes can help you get it back and even more in the long run.

TILTMEONCE · High Card Joined: 02 Sep 2009 Posts: 3

dont u now that this game and site are designd to make u lose more than win!? U get fuc*** to make the greenhorns win more and more often! thay whant it to look like u can win in this game on the net but in the longtime u dont. The best way to get more players to a site is to make the new ones win on behaf off the low bankrollers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont see this as a way to make money. I have never had so many sick outdraws IRL and i put my money on that and not on full tilt

Danduy · Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:49 am Post subject:

The last few days i've put my kings in the muck three times against Queens after a queen fell ont the board.
An easy all-in call with aces against AK resulted in a T-J-Q board twice.

A quick out where i hitted second nuts on a 6-9-6 board against quads.

The worst beat i've taken so far on the bubble:

My hand K2
opponent A9

Board: 5-K-2 rag he blufss and i call: Turn A, river 9

Really sad day for my sit & go, but hell. I made three 1 places in a row and only one with a suckout so actally i had a good day, but the paying out wasn't as aspected. But hey, today an onther day and try again.

I can post HH if requested because i'm still at work and no HH here.

Azonicbh · Pair Joined: 02 Aug 2009 Posts: 44

Suck outs will happen and variance is inevitable . As long as you have good bankroll management and are willing to go down in stakes if you have to in order to respect those bankroll rules , you'll be fine. Variance will happen , no matter how good of a player you are , its mathematics , it will happen.

That said , the psychological affect that variance can have on a player can often times be quite hard even if that player understands variance . That's why it's so important to keep a positive attitude. I must say , from your last post , you seem to be taking those beats quite well and that's what you should do.

If I can give you a piece of advice , when I do get suck out I will do my best to review the hand and try to learn something from it. It's the best you can do , try to learn from it and gain information that could help you greatly in the future (I.E : get some information how that opponent plays a certain type of hands ... )

Danduy · Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:38 am Post subject:

Yeah, i know it is part of the game and suckouts do happen. The good thing is that i get them more then i give them myself.

I take notes on players who limp with aces. Make a pot size bet on the flop with the nuts etc. so that i fall in to these traps less often.

My biggest weak point is apperently the bubble play. I play it 'to' aggressive or to passive so in between is something i need to apply in the future. But on the other hand i play to win it and not just to cash in 3rd by folding. If i finish the money most of them are 1st - or second when i actually run into a big hand headsup or i get drawn out against a weaker hand.

I started over again yesterday because i made some buy-ins at bigger MTT and i played a few 33$ sit & go's. This is deadly with a small bankroll to play, so i convinced myself to stick to the 5$ s&g and work my way up from there. Maybe soon it will be the 10$ s&g. It will take time and effort but i still manage to make a silly mistake or bad read so i have to go on with a crippled stack. But less mistakes then two weeks ago. I underestimated the 5$ sit&go actually, because i ran into a lot of solid good players so for now this stake will do just fine for me.

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