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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: HU SnG Strategy |
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I checked out a few Stox vids to get a feel for HU play, but I have a few more specific questions.
1) What stats do you use on your HUD, and can you play these games profitably without one by taking good notes?
2) How many tables do you generally play since they require much more attention than 6max or FR?
3) Do you prefer turbo or regular structure and why?
4) How is the swingyness compared 6max and FR?
5) What would be a decent ROI to aim for at low limit games (~$10)?
The idea of HU is appealing because it would give me a chance to work on my read-based game (rather than pure ICM math) and allow me to play shorter sessions since I don't have as much time to play right now. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Bump.
Also curious about the pros and cons of larger field shootouts vs. single table HU games. |
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itsldog
Royal Flush
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 589
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:33 am Post subject: |
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I don't have much exp with HU SnG, but what little experience I have I'll share.
I for one can only play 2 HU matches at the same time and even then against certain opponents I prefer them solo. Heads up for me is just so much more of a mind **** and not so much brick and mortar. So I can't just make "standard" moves I would generally make in 6/FR.
As far as turbos vs reg. Personally, I prefer turbo. I like fast pace high presssure. Plus you can get more volume in.
I know this doesn't help you at all, but hey, bump! Hope you find what your looking for. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| itsldog wrote: |
I don't have much exp with HU SnG, but what little experience I have I'll share.
I for one can only play 2 HU matches at the same time and even then against certain opponents I prefer them solo. Heads up for me is just so much more of a mind **** and not so much brick and mortar. So I can't just make "standard" moves I would generally make in 6/FR.
As far as turbos vs reg. Personally, I prefer turbo. I like fast pace high presssure. Plus you can get more volume in.
I know this doesn't help you at all, but hey, bump! Hope you find what your looking for. |
Ya, I really like hows it's basically one big mind game. I'm sure you could play a HU SnG blind and have much more success than at a blind 6max/FR game because most of the decisions are independent of your actual holdings. I just need a lot of help with getting as much info as possible on the villains so I can play accordingly. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:47 am Post subject: |
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Ok, last bumpamentz.
I'm starting to get a feel for the game and adjust to different styles, but there's still plenty of room for improvement. I'll condense the OP to these questions:
1) What stats do you use and how necessary is the HUD (since my trial runs out any day now)?
2) What's a decent sustainable ROI for a winning but not necessarily great player?
3) How do you adjust to a LAG opponent when your default style is LAG?
For question 3, I do alright adjusting to TAG, TP, and LP styles, but LAGs give me trouble. Here's my current strategy. If they out-LAG me, I tighten up a little bit, cbet air less, and let them build the pot for me with like middle pair or better. If my default is more LAG than they are, I try to just run over them for more small pots than they can win off me. Thoughts? |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 8691
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: HU SnG Strategy |
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| ZachAttack07 wrote: |
I checked out a few Stox vids to get a feel for HU play, but I have a few more specific questions.
1) What stats do you use on your HUD, and can you play these games profitably without one by taking good notes?
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i barely ever refer to my HUD in HU. unless you are playing someone who is multitabling and you're fairly sure they don't adjust their game much, peoples' ranges change vary quite a bit depending on gameflow, stack sizes, etc. i do keep it on and look at some of the stats, like steal%, 3bet%, call steal%. in HU i dont think VPIP/PFR are quite as useful since you are always in the blinds. however, no matter what stats you use, they are going to be much less reliable/useful than in a multiplayer game.
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2) How many tables do you generally play since they require much more attention than 6max or FR?
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this is personal preference. i usually 1 table, though if the player i'm against is bad enough that i can beat him without having to concentrate too hard, i'll open up a second table.
playing multiple tables against the same opponent is much different and i'll happily 2 table or maybe 3 table.
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3) Do you prefer turbo or regular structure and why?
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i prefer turbos because they are over faster, and also because i find that the regs in the regular speed games tend to be more of the tricky/trappy types, while the turbo regs tend to be more laggy. i find laggy easier to play against. this is at the $100+ level though, i'm not sure what the situation at the $10 level is like.
this is also personal preference as well, since you might have trouble with the lags but be able to outplay the tricky/trappy players better than i can.
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4) How is the swingyness compared 6max and FR?
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do you mean 6max/FR sngs? i don't play a lot of multiplayer SNGs so i can't really compare, but i can say that HU cash is much more swingy than 6max cash. you probably would want about 1.5-2 times the roll for HU cash as you would for 6max cash.
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5) What would be a decent ROI to aim for at low limit games (~$10)?
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i can't speak for $10 games, but at $100 turbos i think 8% is probably the maximum sustainable, and that would be with fairly tight game selection. at non-turbos you could probably get 12-15% with tight game selection. i assume somewhat higher ROIs are possible at the $10s.
if you really want to shoot for a low-variance, high-ROI game, you could play the deep-stacked non-increasing blind SNGs they have on stars. ROIs of 25%+ are definitely sustainable, and you probably only need a bankroll of 15-20 buyins. however, they take much longer to play than regular or turbo games (from what i hear it's not rare for them to last a couple of hours) so your hourly might end up being lower than turbos/reg speeds. there's also the problem if you have to leave in the middle of the game.
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The idea of HU is appealing because it would give me a chance to work on my read-based game (rather than pure ICM math) and allow me to play shorter sessions since I don't have as much time to play right now. |
yeah both of these (especially the 2nd) are reasons why i like HU play |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Huj, that was really helpful.
Btw, do you use sharkscope to table select very often? I would imagine that it might be worth a subscription once you get the BR up to a healthy level and are playing the higher stakes games, unless you feel like you can pretty much outplay most people at your level.
And any tips on battling other LAGs, or is my current strategy maybe ok?
"I do alright adjusting to TAG, TP, and LP styles, but LAGs give me trouble. Here's my current strategy. If they out-LAG me, I tighten up a little bit, cbet air less, and let them build the pot for me with like middle pair or better. If my default is more LAG than they are, I try to just run over them for more small pots than they can win off me."
Thanks again on an awesome post.  |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 8691
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ZachAttack07 wrote: |
Thanks Huj, that was really helpful.
Btw, do you use sharkscope to table select very often? I would imagine that it might be worth a subscription once you get the BR up to a healthy level and are playing the higher stakes games, unless you feel like you can pretty much outplay most people at your level.
And any tips on battling other LAGs, or is my current strategy maybe ok?
"I do alright adjusting to TAG, TP, and LP styles, but LAGs give me trouble. Here's my current strategy. If they out-LAG me, I tighten up a little bit, cbet air less, and let them build the pot for me with like middle pair or better. If my default is more LAG than they are, I try to just run over them for more small pots than they can win off me."
Thanks again on an awesome post. |
actually you are not allowed to use sharkscope to game select on full tilt. i recently emailed full tilt support to confirm this. so needless to say i don't do that.
as far as adjusting to lags... just try to find which spots they are applying too much aggression and exploit those spots appropriate.
for example some c/r the flop too much. in that case be more inclined to check back draws and mediocre hands like midpair and bottom pair where you will probably not be able to stand a re-raise. you need to practice a lot of pot control against these players. against a passive player, or even a tag player, you can quite comfortably fold midpair or TPNK to a check/raise but LAG players will make these decisions much more close. however, depending on stack sizes you might still bet strong draws with the intention of shoving over a reraise.
eg. stacks 1500, blinds 15/30, you open KQ of hearts on the button to 90 and he calls. the flop is 742 with two hearts. id bet 120 here, and shove over him if he c/rs. with overs and a flush draw you're a favorite against any one pair hand except QQ+ and this is a flop LAG players will c/r all the time with draws or air, not believing you hit it.
i'd also still bet total air on the flop, as that is usually your best chance to take down the hand, unless it's the type of board you really expect him to c/r in which case id check and most likely give up. there's nothing wrong with giving up on hands when there's just no profitable way to continue. remember against these lag players, the times you give up the pot will be compensated for by the extra value you gain when you do flop well.
if he does stuff like 3bet too much preflop, you can adjust by calling/shoving over his 3bets slightly lighter, as well as either opening less frequently, or opening a small size (i.e. minraising). you could even start limping some hands.
there are a lot of other tendencies you can look to exploit, but be careful you're not opening yourself up to being exploited. at the $10s this won;'t be much of a worry but at $100+ it definitely is. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| HuJwang wrote: |
| ZachAttack07 wrote: |
Thanks Huj, that was really helpful.
Btw, do you use sharkscope to table select very often? I would imagine that it might be worth a subscription once you get the BR up to a healthy level and are playing the higher stakes games, unless you feel like you can pretty much outplay most people at your level.
And any tips on battling other LAGs, or is my current strategy maybe ok?
"I do alright adjusting to TAG, TP, and LP styles, but LAGs give me trouble. Here's my current strategy. If they out-LAG me, I tighten up a little bit, cbet air less, and let them build the pot for me with like middle pair or better. If my default is more LAG than they are, I try to just run over them for more small pots than they can win off me."
Thanks again on an awesome post. |
actually you are not allowed to use sharkscope to game select on full tilt. i recently emailed full tilt support to confirm this. so needless to say i don't do that.
as far as adjusting to lags... just try to find which spots they are applying too much aggression and exploit those spots appropriate.
for example some c/r the flop too much. in that case be more inclined to check back draws and mediocre hands like midpair and bottom pair where you will probably not be able to stand a re-raise. you need to practice a lot of pot control against these players. against a passive player, or even a tag player, you can quite comfortably fold midpair or TPNK to a check/raise but LAG players will make these decisions much more close. however, depending on stack sizes you might still bet strong draws with the intention of shoving over a reraise.
eg. stacks 1500, blinds 15/30, you open KQ of hearts on the button to 90 and he calls. the flop is 742 with two hearts. id bet 120 here, and shove over him if he c/rs. with overs and a flush draw you're a favorite against any one pair hand except QQ+ and this is a flop LAG players will c/r all the time with draws or air, not believing you hit it.
i'd also still bet total air on the flop, as that is usually your best chance to take down the hand, unless it's the type of board you really expect him to c/r in which case id check and most likely give up. there's nothing wrong with giving up on hands when there's just no profitable way to continue. remember against these lag players, the times you give up the pot will be compensated for by the extra value you gain when you do flop well.
if he does stuff like 3bet too much preflop, you can adjust by calling/shoving over his 3bets slightly lighter, as well as either opening less frequently, or opening a small size (i.e. minraising). you could even start limping some hands.
there are a lot of other tendencies you can look to exploit, but be careful you're not opening yourself up to being exploited. at the $10s this won;'t be much of a worry but at $100+ it definitely is. |
Awesome advice, it'll definitely help me a lot at the tables. It's funny about the Sharkscope thing since you see them using it for table selection on a lot of instructional videos at Stox and such, at both Fulltilt and Stars I believe. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 8691
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| they may be old videos, from before sharkscope was banned. i dont think full tilt really started enforcing SS bans until the last few months. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, almost forgot an important question. How many buyins should you be sitting on for the HU SnGs? |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 8691
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| 30 is probably fine for an aggressive bankroll strategy. 50 if you wanna be a little more conservative and 100 if you play for a living. |
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