Online Poker Forum - Guide to multi-tabling super turbo SNG's

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

this is going to be my first guide to anything really, and its gotta be the game that i profit the most in..super turbos

I am going to cover the following topics with you

Early stages
-shove ranges
-calling shove ranges
-steal ranges, when and how
-post flop play
-summary

middle stages
-shove ranges
-calling shove ranges
-calling min-raise ranges
-isolating shortstacks
-stealing-when and how
-summary

late stages
-shoving ranges
-calling shove ranges
-calling min-raise ranges
-calling shortstack shoves
-isolating
-steal ranges, when and how
-how to bully while on bubble/ITM
-summary

HU play

big stack play
-intro
-how NOT to bleed chips off

short stack play
-when to shove
-when to call

other tips
-how to multi-table
-BR management
-Edits!
-new ideas!

Early stages (first 3 levels)

---shove ranges ---
in the early stages of the game, people are looking to get it in with the best of it, and hoping their hands hold up. This is exactly what you should be doing as well, as its important to get that double up before the middle or late stages of the game, so you arent forced to go in with medium holdings
THEREFORE-your open shove ranges should be as followed
while BB and SB are avg stack
-EP shove with AA-99 (AA-JJ if u want to play nitty), AK, and often AQ
-MP shove with AA-88 (AA-TT if you want to play nitty), AK, AQ
-LP shove with AA-77 (AA-99 if nit), AK,AQ,AJ,AT
when BB and SB are significantly lower than avg stack
-EP shove same as avg stack
-MP shove same as avg stack
-LP shove with AA-66,AK,AQ,AJ,A10, A9s (sometimes),KQs
when BB and SB are significantly higher than you
-EP shove same
-MP shove same
-LP shove with AA-88 (77 even), AK,AQ,AJ
when BB or SB is calling station (youve seen them show down Q9 to a shove)
-EP shove AA-TT AK,AQ
-MP shove with AA-99, AK,AQ,AJ
-LP shove with AA-88, AK,AQ,AJ,A10,KQ,A9s

if you do this, then shoving in early stages will be easy

---call ranges ---
people get it in early here with everything between KQ-AA, and any PP's..therefore its always good to keep a nice tight calling range.

-facing EP shove call with AA-TT , AK,AQs
-facing MP shove call with AA-TT, AK,AQ
-facing LP shove call with AA-88, AK,AQ,AJ
-facing suicide shove (player shoves everything) call with AA-88, AK-A9

just tighten up your ranges and you should be fine

---steal ranges, when and how ---
since people play so nitty here, i like stealing in multiple occasions. here are a few

-shove in BB to a SB call. this move works lots of times, the SB thinks he can see the flop by just calling. Punish him and shove with Ax, K6+,Q10+,and any PP

-any LP limper in pot=possible shove steal. just shove with A8+,KJ+ and any PP if there is a LP limper

---post flop play---
1. THERE SHOULDNT BE, either fold or shove. if by chance there is any, then play like a normal game. try not to make a bluff. Also try to get other players to bluff

---summary---
the early stages are all about tight, solid shoves so you can double up, dont worry about not doubling up during this stage though, as there are plenty of opportunities to get your money in good

Middle stages (second 4 levels (25-50 to 40-80)

---shove ranges ---
there are two circumstances that you can be in when we reach the middle levels. The first situation is that youve doubled or tripled up and am sitting with 600-1000 chips or you havent double up yet and your still at 200-400 chips. I will tell you how to survive in both situations

with 600-1000 chips look to punish the shorter stacks trying to limp ITM and the stacks that you have covered.
when the opp. in BB/SB cover you
In EP- shove with AA-88, AK-AJ
In MP- shove with AA-88 AK-A10
In LP- shove with AA-77, AK-A9, KQ
when the opp. in BB/SB dont cover you
In EP- shove with AA-77 AK-AJ
In MP- shove with AA-66 AK-A9
In LP- shove with AA-44 AK-A8, KQs, KJs

with 200-400 chips you are looking to get it in or make a few steals..
In EP- shove with AA-66 AK-AJ, KQs
In MP- shove with AA-44 AK-A9, KQ-KJ
In LP- shove with any PP, AK-A8, KQ-K10, QJ
hope to take down the blinds, as they are significant to your stack

---Calling shoves---
you want to be selective about calling shoves from EP raises, but very loose in calling LP raises when you have them covered.

with 600-1000 chips
facing an EP shove that has you covered- AA-TT, AK, AQ
facing an EP shove that doesnt have you covered- AA-88, AK-AJ
facing a MP shove that has you covered- AA-88, AK-AJ
facing a MP shove that doesnt have you covered AA-77, AK-A10
facing a LP shove that has you covered- AA-88, AK-A9 (maybe A6+ if you have read)
facing a LP shove doesnt have you covered AA-55, AK-A7, KQ-KJ

with 200-400 chips
facing an EP shove - AA-88 AK-AJ
facing a MP shove- AA-77 , AK-A10, KQ
facing a LP shove- AA-55, AK-A8, KQ-KJ

---calling min-raise ranges---
-almost never do this. shove over the top with AA-88, AK-AJ
-only do it when you are in BB with hands like J10s, QJs, etc, but even then id advise not to do it

---isolating shortstacks---
- when isolating shortstacks, you want to have 600-1000 chips already.
you never want to flat call shortstacks, and you never want a multiway pot (even with AA.) Therefore, you want to shove anything that you would call against a shortstack. This is slightly different from calling a normal shove

In EP facing an EP shove, re-shove with AA-TT, AK-AQ
In MP facing an EP shove, re-shove with AA-99, AK-AJ
In MP facing an MP shove, re-shove with AA-88, AK-A10
In LP facing EP shove, re-shove with AA-66, AK-A10
In LP facing MP shove, re-shove with AA-66, AK-A9, KQ
In LP facing LP shove, reshove with AA-66, AK -A8, KQ

if someone else calls the shortstacks shove before you, you want to lay down roughly half of the hands that you would call with. tighten up the range that we used early on about calling shoves in middle stages

---Stealing, when and how---

if you holding 600-1000 chips, you have a much wider range to steal. steal when you get a limper in the pot that you have covered with the hands AA-66, AK-A8, KQ-K10,QJ.

if you have 600-1000 chips you want to shove against short-mid stacks in LP as much as possible, therefore shove with AA-55, AK-A8, KQ-K9s, QJ

if you have 300-500 chips i suggest shoving into an unopened pot in LP with AA-55, AK-A7, KQ-K9s, QJ

---Summary
the middle stages are about putting agression on your opponents, and targeting and busting the shortstacks. Its important to get to the final 5 people during this stage, and to get the most amount of chips possible to have a significant edge in the late stages

Late stages (after 6 levels of play, 50-100 on)

---shoving range---
- by now you should be either at 300-500 chips, 500-800 chips, or 800+ chips

in UTG with 4+ people left and 300-500chips- shove with AA-55, AK-A7,KQ-KJ
in UTG with 3 people left and 300-500 chips-shove with AA-55, AK-A6, KQ-K8s, QJs
in UTG with 4+ people left and 500-800 chips- shove with AA-66, AK-A8
in UTG with 3 people left and 500-800 chips- shove with AA-66 AK-A7,KQ-KTs
in UTG with 4+ people left and 800+ chips- shove with AA-66, AK-A7,KQ-KJ
in UTG with 3 people left and 800+ chips- shove with AA-55, AK-A7, KQ-K9s, QJ

in MP with 4+ people left and 500+ chips- shove with AA-44, AK-A7, KQ-K9s, QJ-QTs
in MP with 3 people left and 500+ chips- shove with any PP, AK-A5,KQ-K8s, QJ-Q10s
in MP with 4+people left and 300-500 chips- shove AA-88, AK-A8,KQ-KJ
in MP with 3 people left and 300-500 chips, shove any PP, AK-A5, KQ-K7,QJ-Q9s

in blinds with 4+ people left and 500+chips- shove with any PP, AK-A6, KQ-K10
in blinds with 4+ people left and 300-500 chips- shove with any PP, Ax, KQ-K7, QJ
in blinds with 3 people left and any chips- shove with any PP, Ax, KQ-K7, QJ-Q9s

---Calling shove ranges---
in blinds or MP and 300-500 chips with 4+ people left, call with AA-55, AK-A8, KQ-K10s
in blinds or MP and 300-500 chips with 3+ people left call with any PP, AK-A4, KQ-K7s, QJ-Q9s, JTs
in blinds or MP and 500+ chips with 4+ people left (and raise covers you),call with AA-77,AK-A9,KQ
in blinds or MP and 500+ chips with 3 people (and raise doesnt cover) call with AA-55, AK-A6, KQ-K10
in blinds or MP and 300-500 chips left with 4+ people left, call with AA-55, AK-A6, KQ-K9s, QJ
in blinds or MP and 300-500 chips left with 3 people left, call with any PP, Ax, KQ-K5, QJ-Q7, JT

---calling min-raise ranges---
dont do this, either shove over him with AA-66 and AK-A7,KQ-KJ or fold

---callin shortstack shoves---
do this with any chip stack 500+ with AA-44, AK-A5, KQ-K9s,QJs
do this with 300-500 chips (and you cover him) with AA-77, AK-A8, KQ-K10s

--- isolating ---
i suggest isolating with PP's and AK-A10, KQ-KJ...you may want to just call with some of these hands and check them down to get ITM though if its against a real shortstack

---steal ranges/how to bully

when there are 2 shortstacks at your table, and you have a high chip stack (800+) shove with any pp, Ax, Kx, QJ-Q6s, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s to pick up the blinds, they will normally fold to try to get ITM or try to increase in the pay spots, waiting for each other to get out

keep the agression up

---summary---
the goal is to keep agression up if you are a big stack, and to try to squeeze your way ITM if you are shortstacked. steal often and dont be afraid to confront a few shortstacks.

Heads up Play
there are 3 scenarios that you can be in, and 2 different positions for each scenario

you have a dominating chip stack and am in SB.. shove with any PPs, Ax, K5+, QJ-Q10s,JTs.. fold almost everything else

you have a dominating chip stack and are in BB... call a shove with any PP, A6+, K10+.... shove with any PP, Ax,K8+

you have even chip stacks and am in SB...shove with any PP's, Ax,K7+,QJ-QT

you have even chip stacks and am in BB... call a shove with any PP's, A6+,K9s+....shove with any PP, Ax+,K6+,QJ

you have a dominated chip stack and am in SB... shove with any PP, Ax,Kx,Q6s+,JTs-J9s, T9s

you have a dominated chip stack and am in BB...call a shove with any PP, Ax,Kx,Q9s+, shove with any PP, Ax,Kx,Q7s+,J8s+,T9s

its basically a coinflipping situation all the time, just hope you come out with the best of it

big stack play
the goal in super turbos is to get a big stack, and keep agression to a maximum. dont be afraid to get into flips with low PP's as fold equity gives you the edge when you shove

blinds are huge relative to the stacks, so you only need to push a few times for it to affect your stack dramatically. Keep the agression piled on at late stages, especially during the bubble and ITM against 2 shortstacks.

how not to bleed off chips
in Early stages, dont be agressive. People play super tight in this stage, and there is lots of people, so good hands are always out there. Try to be agressive in the mid-late and late stages of the game only

dont target other big stacks, as when they finally call you, they will cut your stack in half or worse, and you will go from winning a tournament to scraping ITM or not even making ITM

short stack play

shortstack play is when you have less than 4BB's in Early stages or 3BB's in mid or late stages

when to shove
-in early stages.....shove with any PP, AK-A6, KQ-K10
-in mid to late stages.. shove with any PP, Ax,KQ-K6s, QJ-Q9s

when to call
-in early stages....call with 55+, AK-A8+,KQ-K10s
-in late stages... call with any PP, AK-A7, KQ-K8s,QJ

there are specific times when to shove/when to call hands in my other sections, read those sections for more details/better ranges at different times

Other tips

how to multi-table stick to a straightfoward range of hands (use the ones i posted above) on how to play, stick to shoving or folding.

I like registering for all the games, then tile/cascading them so that they form a nice little line of boxes that fit on the screen. once i get to 4-6 tables left tile them and let them fill up my screen. This allows me to better focus on all the games

Use the player notes section if you catch a donk shoving rags when hes not supposed to, chances are youll see him again

dont worry about bad beats, they are going to happen ALOT. i dont even look at how i lost anymore, as it may tilt me. I dont want to be tilted, as loosing one game could force me to lose 10 or so.

you can either play in sets of games or continuous games.
-sets of games is when you register for all X games, then play them and dont register for any more until the first X are finished

-continuous games are the second you bust out of one Super turbo, you register for another.

I do sets.

Bankroll management

i suggest over 100+ buyins for these, as they are incredibly swingy, and will drain you of all your cash quickly if you go on a bad streak (200 is a very good idea)

also would help to have rakeback, as that increases your profits ALOT!!
email rakebackpros.com and affiliates(sp)@fulltiltpoker.com to get rakeback

Edits

-i will post when/how i edit this when i do
april 19th 2009, editted some ranges

New ideas

any idea suggested by other forum members will be posted here

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

reserved if there is going to be some type of character limit

tracysanders · Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject:

weeeeeeeeeeeeeak immfo,

lol j/k buddy

this should be a great help for me, looking forward to the rest of it

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

ok..its finished

deton8whore · Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject:

read most of it, and it seems pretty standard for super turbo play. I clearly play the bubble differently, which may be a mistake on my part, but besides that we are playing the same.

goborage · Royal Flush Joined: 01 Jan 2009 Posts: 650

Pretty cool guide. Maybe I'll grow a pair and play those 20 FTP 3 minute blind games now.

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

woo...super turbos and turbos are 2 different ballgames

and deton..maybe post ur ranges for bubble play ITT

deton8whore · Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject:

it really come down to stack sizes and who plays tight and who doesn't. there is no "range" imo.. I also try to claim free double up's when I know who's stealing.

I can't give a direct answer to the hands I'd play because I don't like calling shoves, or playing aggro when I am not the shortstack... and yeah... I'll play tight on the bubble.

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

i cant really agree or disagree with you, playing tight just garuntees you a money spot, where playing to win while having a significant cushion of chips turns out +Ev in the long run, especially when everyone else thinks like you just thought

deadmeat82 · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:14 am Post subject:

Beautiful info...thanks tjb. I think this is mostly how I play these, but I've been really unorganized as far as my ranges and methods. Having a guide like this might lower my variance and patch a couple of major leaks that I have.

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

np..

this is basically how everyone with half of a brain plays them.. i just wrote it down and simplified it a bit...plus gave newcomers a helpful guide to get them started

--trust me..there is plenty of donks that ill still profit if some of you guys join in

PS. after 2 losing runs i just made a $41 profit in a set of 12

EDIT:then 2 $30 profit runs...heater IMO

dcdoorknob · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject:

Just curious, but where are you getting all these ranges from? I think there are many spots where you need to be pushing even wider than you suggest, especially when you or your opponent are short, when on the button or SB, and in heads up play.

If you follow this to the letter you probably still are playing these a little better than the average player at these stakes, but it still isn't 100% optimal play imo. For example, there are times with a big stack on the bubble you can easily shove with any 2 or at least 75%+ of hands if the people behind you have 5 BBs or less.

You mention shoving over limpers a little, but I think this is a very important thing to do with anything decent, and it doesn't have to be a late position limper imo. It is pretty safe to assume that any preflop limper in these (assuming 10BB or less) is just a poor player, and the way to exploit them is to shove and watch them fold. Go ahead and shove anything you would shove if there were no limpers.

Also, I do suggest 100 buy-ins for these, I think they are too swingy for me to be completely comfortable with only 50 buy-ins. As mentioned, rakeback makes a really huge difference for the long-term profitability of these as well.

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

my ranges come from alot of play, not as much of a mathetmatical range ...so i can normally tell that most of the hands im shoving come out ahead of his calling ranges

-SB and button ranges are just because i like feeling safe and staying in the tournament then getting a 30chip-50 chip adv...
--i cant tell you how many times i shove with something like Q6 OTB when blinds are 40-80 and i get some donk who snap calls with K6 and beats me

in HU play its just a shove fest, but i like keeping it tight and doubling through with something like Ax or K8+ most of the time

the limpers play ive been working on alot lately in my last 50 games or so..but sometimes (regularly actually) people in EP try to trap people who shove into a limper.. im fine with LP limpers who just try to look at a pot, and shoving over them ( but even then alot of them call with Krag,Q8+ hands... i want to be ahead when they do this)

----note.. this will be a future edit: once i work a bit more on limpers play..

deton8whore · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject:

tjb, limping in super turbo's is so simple.

early on, you can guarantee that people are limping with any 2, but...

later on, it's most likely aces or kings, setting up for a linetrap.

tjb111 · Message Board Junkie Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 2960

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